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December 09, 2003
Help a kid
An email I receive this morning:
I am a junior attending [a Catholic high school in Michigan]. I was recently told by an agnostic student that Christianity copied off of Mithraism which originated 500 B.C. I am aware that Mithraism is different in many ways and that it appealed typically to Roman soldiers, but this student gave me a paper saying that Mithraism had seven sacraments including the Euchurist and that the founder was a messiah who ascended into heaven. I am deeply disturbed by this, but I haven't lost hope. A couple of students at my school constantly attempt to make me question my faith as a Roman Catholic and ask me to accept Atheism.
First, note that the young man's faith is under attack from fellow students in his Catholic high school. And, please note, that the young man, for some reason, doesn't feel confident enough, either in himself or in his teachers' interest or knowledge, to just go ask one of his instructors.
I'll be writing him later, and sending him a couple of my books - but they don't of course, directly address the Mithras question. It just makes me sad.
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We need to keep in mind that most Christian practice and thought is not original to Christianity. The early Roman Christians had been Roman pagans, so it should not be surprising that Christianity has some elements of contemporary pagan practices (see Christmas). What make Christianity unique, is not our practice or thought, but the experience of the Resurrected Christ continuining to be in our midst.
Posted by: Mike at Dec 9, 2003 11:06:53 AM
Amy:
Send him my way. I can help with the Mithras stuff. (Putting that M.A. in Classics to use again...)
Feel free to give him my e-mail address.
Posted by: Fr. Rob Johansen at Dec 9, 2003 11:09:48 AM
A.N. Wilson makes use of the Mithras canard in his book on Paul. Although I am not an expert on such things, I deem it highly unlikely that the Mithras cult had seven sacraments similiar to the Catholic sacraments, as the the Catholic system of seven sacraments was not fully codified in the Church until the Middle Ages.
Posted by: Peter Nixon at Dec 9, 2003 11:12:59 AM
The Catholic Encyclopedia has a good entry on Mithraism, which addresses similarities to Christianity.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10402a.htm
Posted by: Jim at Dec 9, 2003 11:14:29 AM
Also, the Catholic faith doesn't invalidate other previous or current religions. The teaching is that Catholicism highlights and embraces the truth of natural religions and perfects it (the whole grace builds on nature bit). So similarities to other rituals and institutions are not necessarily detrimental to the authenticity of the Catholic Faith but, rather, enhance it.
The other issue is the question of sacraments. As mentioned earlier it took centuries to clearly define specifically seven, but even that may miss the point that sacrament really means mystery and that these are seven mysteries of all the mysteries of the Faith that emerged as definitive in Catholic worship. So to say Mithraism has sacraments is unclear as to meaning. Were they called sacraments, what was the usage of the word at the time and did it mean the same thing? As for practices, there is nothing exclusive about breaking bread, or washing with water, annointing with oil, etc, many religions have and use these rituals. The power behind Catholic sacraments lies the man Jesus and not the ritual itself.
Posted by: Ono at Dec 9, 2003 11:49:09 AM
Daughter of friend's of ours has been home schooled to about Sophmore year. She is now 13. In her new Catholic High School she is teased as a goody-goody because she is still a virgin. She is a pretty little girl. Shy but smart. Catholic peer pressure in the Diocese of Virginia. Spirit of Vatican II.
Posted by: Janos at Dec 9, 2003 12:27:53 PM
Send him to Fr. Rob. I'll help, too.
*sigh* Most of these people who draw loose analogies don't know how loose they are. One of the problems is how little we know - there's a reason we call 'em "mystery religions".
Yes, MIthraism had practices which could be viewed as "like sacraments" -- they were most like the one-off sacraments (baptism, ordination, marriage) and none of them were to my knowledge repeatable.
So, on that level, joining ANY organization in which there's a ceremony is "like a sacrament." Is registering to vote a sacrament? No. Is getting a driver's license (which involves testing like answering questions about renouncing Satan and then an approval like laying on of hands).
There's a good recent book (much more recent than the Catholic Encyclopedia -- I was a major transcriber-onto-the-web thereof and love it, but it WAS published in 1910) which is quite sound on the little we DO know about Mithraism: David Ulansey The Origins of the Mithraic Mysteries: Cosmology and Salvation in the Ancient World.
Posted by: Michael Tinkler at Dec 9, 2003 12:37:55 PM
Perhaps the single most useful work in English on the mystery religions is by Steven Angus. Its full title is "The Mystery Religions: A Study in the Religious Background of Early Christianity" but you often see it simply as "The Mystery Religions."
A Dover Books reprint is available from Amazon.com. for about $11. Any decent university library would have it. It is a wonderful book.
A more recent treatment worth a look would be Marvin Meyer's "The Ancient Mysteries: A Sourcebook: Sacred Texts of the Mystery Religions of the Ancient Mediterranean World"
Posted by: George Lee at Dec 9, 2003 2:05:37 PM
A lady in a parish where I help out complained that her grandson at Fordham had a professor in a religion class assign them the task of validating the Catholic Church policy of not ordaining women --after she had identified herself as an agnostic, Jewish lesbian. My response: "Good. Now maybe he'll learn to think, and learn to defend the faith." (I had nothing to say about the school or its hiring policy.) I am forever running across (into) people --across the Catholic spectrum-- whose religious education stopped in the 8th grade, and wasn't even very good by 8th grade standards.
Posted by: Mike Walsh, MM at Dec 9, 2003 2:06:02 PM
Article in Touchstone this month addresses supposed pagan roots of Christmas, claims not as strong as commonly thought. Interesting. Anybody have any comment/critique of it?
Bill
Posted by: William Rudolph at Dec 9, 2003 2:17:49 PM
I second the vote for the Ulansey book. Mithra started out as the Indo-Iranian god of Right Judgments, was turned into an angel by Zoroaster, and after being taken West wa stransformed into the focus of a Mystery religion. Being supernatural, he was never born and never died and rose. The heyday of Mithraism is the Late Empire after the basics of Christianity had been set. The sacraments line may refer to the varying levels of initiation into the sect. We don't baptize in blood though and don't exclude women as the Mithraists did.
Posted by: Sandra Miesel at Dec 9, 2003 2:39:39 PM
A short answer is:
(1) we don't know very much about Mithraism, and so any suggestion that Christianity was derived from Mithraism ultimately could only be speculation;
(2) a signficant amount of the information we do have about Mithraism dates from the 2nd-3rd centuries AD, and so there is good reason to think that at least some of the few observed parallels between Christianity and Mithraism arise from Christianity's influence on Mithraism, not the other way around;
(3) at least some of the few observed parallels between Christianity and Mithraism can be observed in many other religions (e.g., the idea of redemption by sacrifice; special rites marking certain events in the participant's life, such as birth, becoming a member of the community, marraige and death), and accordingly there is no reason to believe on the basis of those parallels that Mithraism and Christianity share a common religious tradition; and
(4) most significantly, there is overwhelming evidence that Christianity arose out of Judaism, and not any other religious tradition. The arguments in favor of a Mithraic orgin for Christianity collapse into a pile of silliness as soon as one recalls that the early Christians were (at least at the outset) pretty much all Jews, quoted the Jewish scriptures like they were going out of style, and were deeply concerned about how much Jewish religious practice they were bound to observe. In light of all that, arguing that there was some other religious tradition that was more influential on Christianity carries you rapidly into the land of the tinfoil hats.
Posted by: alkali at Dec 9, 2003 2:43:31 PM
I remember learning that in pagan religions men became Gods of various shapes and designs with human qualities. No pagan God became man to teach the world that He was the Messiah and proved it by His control of natural events and miracles, curing the sick and raising the dead to life. He routinely fled from praise and earthly honors and urged his disciples to do the same. And to this very moment Christ's followers are still trying to live His example. He died a horrible death out of love for us, to teach us the danger and futility of the power that so many still worship. He is the source of all power of any kind and still invites us to live in such a way that we are Christs to each other. Tough love indeed!
Posted by: Tom Kelty at Dec 9, 2003 2:46:00 PM
Tom, Krishna was also a god, born of a virgin, persecuted on Earth, all to lead men to a greater knowledge of god. That story, faith and belief system was known throughout the Roman world by the birth of Christianity.
Zorastarianism provides all the major themes and bench marks, from a god incarnating as human, the epic battle of Good and Evil, the coming "Close of History" to the final casting out of the Devil, that are common to the Christian story today.
It was a story told some 1200 years before Christianity arose, in an area of the Levant where the Jews were carted off to after the fall of Israel....
Posted by: Jody at Dec 9, 2003 3:48:38 PM
I'm just betting this is the high school I graduated from...although when I attended we barely learned much about Catholicism let alone
Mithraism. That's progress - I guess.
Posted by: Ell at Dec 9, 2003 4:21:43 PM
There is no account of Krishna I have read that recounts that he was "persecuted", and I have at least a slight familiarity with the great Hindu epics. His father tried to kill him before he was born - a bit like Herod's attempts to kill Jesus, but that's all.
Krishna grew up as a pleasure-loving cowherd renowned for his sexual exploits; in his maturity he was a warrior-prince-god who both advised and fought alongside the 5 Pandava brothers. Midway through the battle he paused to instruct Arjuna, one of the brothers, in a new philosophy recorded in the Bhagavad Gita.
Krishna was shot and killed by accident, by a hunter's arrow.
All this is in the Mahabharata. Does it sound much like Jesus to you, Jody - or to anyone out there?
Anyone who has ever read the Hindu epics will see that their _tone_, if nothing else, is utterly unlike that of the Christian Bible. I imagine much the same is true of most of the purported resemblances between it and other religions as well.
But DON'T take my word for it. Do the research!
Posted by: alias clio at Dec 9, 2003 4:34:25 PM
Just a comment here about high school kids: Too bad the classmates of this youngster are ridiculing his faith. Recently, I had the chance to witness just the opposite.
My son is a senior at Gonzaga College High School in Washington (yes, the liberal Jesuit institution!). He and 38 classmates just got back from a 4-day Kairos retreat (something every young man is to complete during his four years at Gonzaga). The students shared a Mass each day, listened to student leaders discuss issues of personal faith and challenge, shared their own stories, and were led by priests, brothers and teachers. It was a life-affirming and life-changing experience.
While there was no school on Friday, dozens of students arrived on campus (and this isn't a school that people walk to ... it's near Capitol Hill in DC and most kids live in Maryland or Virginia) to welcome their brethren home from the retreat that evening. At the closing event, they shared their new-found appreciation of their faith and each other. It is clearly one of the most important events of my son's (and his classmates') life.
Posted by: Kirk at Dec 9, 2003 4:44:39 PM
Sorry, Clio, but I guess all that stuff about Kamsa/Kansa hounding Krishna both before and after he was born, replete with its own "slaughter of the all the male children" bit, was from that other, well known Krishna tale. That Krishna -- in either tale -- was born from a god, sent to the Earth to free it from the rule of Evil, performed miracles, moved mountains, taught faith, and died for the salvation of All -- is a common motif throughout religions. The pieces get shuffled, a new detail is added here or there, the idea is adapted to suit the needs of the people doing the telling, but the story itself is very, very old.
The better education for the young person in question would be to inform him of that, and not to play the game of "Yes, but whereas Captain Marvel is made up, Superman is -real.-"
Posted by: Jody at Dec 9, 2003 5:00:09 PM
Actually, I said not ONE word about the reality or falsehood of either the Bible or the Hindu epics. What I said was that their substance was different and their emotional impact entirely different.
I do not think you can dismiss these differences as merely incidental details, developing over centuries and adjusted to suit different tastes and audiences.
Some of the differences indeed are "details" likely to impress themselves more on theologians or educated people, like the fact that both Krishna's parents were divine - in the stories I know - thus removing one of the central elements of the Christian story. Or the fact that Krishna did not die willingly, but by accident; or for anyone's sins - he was not a redeemer in that sense. All of these matter to theologians, of course. More important to the uneducated is the fact that - to repeat myself - the emotional atmosphere of the Krishna narratives is ENTIRELY different. They are adventure stories, love stories, and epic romance stories, occasionally venturing into cosmology and philosophy.
It still seems to me that Christ - even if he IS a figure invented to fill a need(I say this for the sake of argument) - is drawn after a Jewish (perhaps a heretical Jewish?) and not a Hindu pattern.
Posted by: alias clio at Dec 9, 2003 5:38:38 PM
"For instance,the doctrine of the Divine Word is Platonic; the doctrine of the Incarnation is Indian; of a divine kingdom is Judaic; of Angels and demons is Magian; the connection of sin with the body is Gnostic; celibacy is known to Bonze and Talapoin; a sacerdotal order is Egyptian; the idea of a new birth is Chinese and Eleusinian; belief in sacramental virtue is Pythagorean. Such is the general nature of the fact before us; Mr Milman argues from it "These things are in heathenism, therefore they are not Christian: we on the contrary prefer to say "These things are in Christianity therefore they are not heathen". That is we prefer to say, and we think that the Scriptures bear us out in saying, that from the very beginning, the Moral Governor of the world has scattered the seeds of truth far and wide over its extent; that these have variously taken root, and grown up in the wilderness, wild plants indeed but living...." Essays Critical and Historical X1; Milners view of Christianity 1871 by Cardinal Newman
Posted by: Geordie at Dec 9, 2003 5:48:10 PM
I would also suggest he read Everlasting Man by GKC. May not answer his question directly, but will certainly put pagan beliefs/atheism in perspective (you can read it too, Jody).
Posted by: c matt at Dec 9, 2003 6:02:43 PM
That is we prefer to say, and we think that the Scriptures bear us out in saying, that from the very beginning, the Moral Governor of the world has scattered the seeds of truth far and wide over its extent; that these have variously taken root, and grown up in the wilderness, wild plants indeed but living....
In otherwords:
After a long passage of time, each nation, such as the Israelites, the people of India, etc. came to believe that only they had been chosen by God to receive His guidance. Each nation only knew about and believed in its ways and Prophets. Each nation thought of God as just their God who cared for them only. Moreover, they did not remain true to the original concept of the One God, but raised other things and human beings to the status of gods alongside the One God.Then God sent the Holy Prophet Muhammad (may peace and the blessings of God be upon him) as the Prophet for not just his land and people of Arabia but for the whole world. He brought from God the message which restored the belief in One God in its fullest purity.
"No, no. Captain Marvel AND Superman are BOTH made up. It's really Wonder Woman who's true. See the tone of those other heroes is just so different than the purity and grace of her story. Therefore, it just has to be true..."
Posted by: Jody at Dec 9, 2003 6:38:47 PM
Aargh. I'm not sure it's worth trying to carry on an argument with someone who so distorts his opponents' comments. And who descends to cheap shots (the "Wonder Woman" horse----) in order to annoy people, so that the likelihood of actually having to encounter a real argument is greatly diminished.
I say again that I was not addressing the question of truth or falsehood in mythology (to use a word you doubtless find "comfortable"), but of atmosphere and content. The fact that you seem tone-deaf to both does not incline me to see you as a reliable witness to the truth.
I don't see how the similarity of Bible stories to other religious epics makes any of them more likely to be false, or true. They speak to common elements in human psychology, if anything. If I were trying to make an argument for atheism I could do much better than that myself.
And by the way, Islam is quite wrong in proclaiming that the other religions of the world saw themselves as applying only to one people. A great deal of trouble might have been spared the world, if that had been true, since no adherent of such a religion would have thought it necessary or indeed possible to convert others to its beliefs.
Jody, to speak bluntly, your arguments are those of a fool and a baiter, not a serious critic of religion or Christianity. I don't usually descend to personal invective in comments boxes, but I'm too irritated (no, not threatened nor angry; I've overcome bigger threats to my faith than you) to be polite.
Posted by: alias clio at Dec 9, 2003 7:00:19 PM
From C. Matt--I would also suggest he read Everlasting Man by GKC. May not answer his question directly, but will certainly put pagan beliefs/atheism in perspective.
I wouldn't get him to read that. Oh yes, Chesterton is very good but for someone his age it's dry as. I suggest one of Flannery O'Connor's modern parables such as "A Good Man Is hard To Find." Takes only half an hour to read through and then invites further readings all leading to greater understanding. Suddenly the coin drops; the dots are connected and the connection made between Christ's redemption and the purpose for any life.
Posted by: Steve at Dec 9, 2003 7:11:53 PM
Clio, since you seem to set yourself up as the wise one, and me as the fool, then I just caution you with old adage "The fool is the wise-man's twin."
The arguments presented here, and indeed the crux of your own point, is that Christianity is somehow right because it is a tale told -differently.- That's not an argument, that's an opinion.
By that line, Hinduism is right because it's stories are told differently than Christian ones, or Buddhist ones or Jewish ones. Or for that matter, the difference between Claremont's X-Men stories and David Gerrold's take X-Factor proves that Claremont view of super mutants saving the world is really true while Gerrold's is just fanciful prefiguration.
Stories are written to speak to the people of their time, in their way, to their needs, rather known or wondered at. They incorporate common motifs of the time and refashion them to create something new. The early Christians were awash in multi-cultural and multi-religious world and were as influenced in the telling of their tale as every modern day sci-fi movie is draped in the dreary tones of "Blade Runner" or the black leather of "The Matrix."
By your line of argument, our Republican Democracy is best because we do it differently than than the Greeks and the Romans did. Besides, -their- take on the concept was just a prefiguration of the blessed rightness of our own version and not the place where an idea was started that evolved over time. You aren't making an argument Clio, but exercising a prejudice.
Give the kid an honest account of the history of religion. Teach him to think and not to close his mind to uncomfortable questions.
Posted by: Jody at Dec 9, 2003 8:01:04 PM
