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March 22, 2004
Kneeling? Standing?
The following comments refer to issues related to implemenation of the GIRM, particularly re/post-Communion posture, which has been contentious for a year now, and the subject of much confusion.
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RUN to the nearest traditional latin Mass, whether "approved" or not.
Posted by: Gen X Revert at Mar 22, 2004 7:08:22 PM
For one thing, it is absolutely necessary for those offended by these things, first, to speak with or write to the Pastor, and then, not receiving satisfaction, write the Bishop.
I add immediately: yes, I know. There have been countless thousands of individual protests over the years. But I am certain that far from everyone who has been scandalized has protested. And the group who do protest, protest repeatedly, unsupported by others, and are unfairly dismissed as cranks.
But between those who are troubled but do not protest, and those who will tell the story to a journalist or someone else who might get it out but refuse to have their names used or insist that the details be camouflaged to protect themselves (and Priests are the worst offenders here, sad to say), we've a sad situation. Dissenters perpetrate these outrages at will. They should be regularly, vigorously opposed, yet most often the field is forfeited to them.
C.S. Lewis says of the liturgical tinkerers, "Christ said, 'Feed my sheep,' not, 'Experiment on my laboratory rats.'"
Personally, what does one do?
Try not to get angry about it. Cultivate a strong devotional life, make sure you're doing solid spiritual reading. Get to daily Mass as often as you can -- its refreshingly simpler, and the congregation is inspiring.
If I were in the Los Angeles Archdiocese, I would either have my pocket New Testament ready for the Communion standing endurance test, or quietly pray the Rosary. The Rosary is for me such a quieting, calming prayer, and I never pray it without coming away feeling as though I'd really prayed.
(and you can offer it for the intentions of the L.A. District Attorney).
This situation is truly wrong, a real injustice. I cannot think that it will continue. Eventually, people are just going to sit down! And then, unobtrusively, you can... kneel.
Posted by: Father Wilson at Mar 22, 2004 7:11:58 PM
Oh. I forgot.
Print our Barbara Nicolosi's excellent reflection, and mail it to His Eminence Roger Cardinal Mahony. And a copy to the Pastor of St Charles Parish might be a good thing, too.
Posted by: Father Wilson at Mar 22, 2004 7:13:28 PM
Have I missed something? Is this not 2004 and do we not have new guidelines for receiving communion and prayer afterwards? I live in the Archdiocese of Chicago, and Cardinal George has written to all of our churches that we may sit or kneel after receiving Our Lord, preferably without drums and fifes to entertain us. People still genuflect without mean looks if they choose to prior to receiving the Eucharist.
No one stands here nor did they ever at the churches with which I am familiar. Is This just LA lunacy or Mahoney crackpotism?
Posted by: John Hetman at Mar 22, 2004 7:22:32 PM
Our parish was meticulous about the GIRMs for the 2002-2003 year. I have heard of standing after communion on this blog and have experienced it a Legionnaires of Christ masses I have attended at times. Otherwise, I believe there is nothing that says one must stand after communion. WRT the Prayer to St. Michael, we started saying at EVERY Mass at our parish about the time of the DC sniper and the first anniversary of 9-11. My husband & I had to use a cheat sheet for awhile til we had it memorized. [Never heard it before in our post-V2 lives!]
As I had mentioned on an earlier thread, the real legacy of the V2 implementation is the fractiousness among Catholics and Catholicsm today. We celebrate the Mass differently from parish to parish and diocese to diocese. We also hold such diverse opions about how we SHOULD celebrate the Mass and have fallen into certain camps, as a result. Unity and uniformity are needed.
Posted by: Peggy at Mar 22, 2004 7:32:24 PM
Gen X Revert, I am one of yours--that is, a gen x revert--and I'm with you the whole way. I've got a Latin rite here in Indianapolis that is just wonderful. On returning to the church, I found that the complete liturgical anarchy (and sometimes downright nuttiness) was making it impossible for me to stay grounded in my faith. What was I returning to, anyway? Once I found my present parish--which has nine, count 'em, NINE Latin rites a week--I knew I was home again.
Not that I must attend Latin rite at all times. I get plenty out of my daily vernacular up the street. But as a young man trying to reconnect with the Catholic Church, I felt I at least had to reconnect with something that was older than I was, if you follow.
Posted by: Sage at Mar 22, 2004 7:45:05 PM
This whole thing about standing after communion was sent in the form of a question by Cardinal George of Chicago [I think], and the response from Rome was that it was not the intention of the Congregation for Worship that people be prohibited from kneeling or sitting after communion.
Here in the diocese of Kalamazoo, people have been returning to their pews after receiving communion, and they have been uniformly kneeling. And it is not the end of the world. I'm for people ignoring these martinet pastors and dropping to their knees and praying, or if they have bad knees, they may sit. What possible difference does it make? As pastor, I don't care if they sit or kneel or stand after communion, as long as they thank God for the gift of His Son.
But I just love how all these bishops and pastors are interpreting these things differently from one another and imposing their will on a people who were not doing anything wrong by kneeling and praying after communion. And the priest who said that the Mass is not, not, not a time for personal prayer has to ask himself about those periods of silence after the homily and after the communion hymn or antiphon is finished. What in God's name are people supposed to do during those extended moments of silence? Avoid personal prayer? How utterly ridiculous. It is these self-contradicting pompous fools that drive me up the wall. And I'll bet that most of these liturgical leaders hadn't read the previous editions of GIRM before the new one, either.
Posted by: Fr. Brian Stanley at Mar 22, 2004 7:55:24 PM
That story is an outrage. That priest is clearly the south end of a donkey going north. That any priest would publicly humiliate someone in this way is simply contemptible.
I agree that laity who are mistreated in this way must protest. Indeed, since the Vatican has ruled that one cannot be denied communion, I think one is free to disobey the pastor in this instance.
Here is another "unorthodox" strategy. If one is ordered to stand, tell the priest or the officious usher that one has an unusual bladder control problem in which one cannot stand for more than 5 minutes without losing control, but that sitting or kneeling doesn't have the same effect and that one really, really, really, doesn't want to have an "accident" in the pews. That solution lacks integrity, I know, but it sure would be tempting!
Posted by: Patrick Rothwell at Mar 22, 2004 7:57:36 PM
The pastor is exceeding his authority and misinterpreting the GIRM. He is introducing "Spirit of Vatican II" ideology in the guise of implementing the GIRM.
Concerned parishioners must first write to the ordinary and demand their right to have the Mass celebrated correctly. Given that the ordinary in this case is Cardinal Roger the Magnificent, I don't expect much. The parishioners will probably get either:
(a) The anticipated shuffling and non-comittal response from Cardinal Rog', or outright support for the pastor's looniness.
or
(b) No response.
If either of these occurs, any Catholic can submit a dubium to Rome. In this case it should be sent to Cardinal Arinze at the Congregation for Divine Worship. It was just such a dubium (which was submitted by laypeople!) that got Arlington's Bishop Loverde's knuckles rapped regarding kneeling last year.
Posted by: Fr. Rob Johansen at Mar 22, 2004 8:05:21 PM
When I was in the seminary (this was twenty-one years ago, my first year of major seminary), we were explicitly told that to return to our choir stalls after receiving, kneel and engage in private prayer was an inappropriate exercise of private piety during Liturgy. While we did not stand during Communion (I laughed when I heard that Cardinal Mahony had directed this in L.A. -- I thought, "Why do I ever say, 'What will they think of next?' There's always something"), we were told that we must join in the communion hymn as a corporate act of worship, that communon time was no time for fracturing into private devotion.
The Cardinal has simply taken this to the next logical level. He wants everyone, not just to stand there, but to sing.
If you want to understand this better, go to the L.A. archdiocesan website. Cardinal Mahony's pastoral letter on how the Sunday Eucharist should be offered is there, and well repays careful reading. You'll understand him a lot better.
This, by the way, is why the traditional Mass was so precise in its rubrics. You might find its regimentation horrifying, but it did not leave you to the mercy of the liturgical creativity or competence of the celebrant.
Posted by: Father Wilson at Mar 22, 2004 8:18:34 PM
This atrocity has been implemented in the Diocese of San Jose California also.
So far, I just ignore it and advise everyone else to do the same.
I am a reader and extraordinary minister of the Eurcharist at our parish and looked to as a leader.
My family and I chose to kneel. If they choose to discipline us, they will have to carry us out by force.
This is one insult too many for me. I will not be moved by my bishop who allows us only one Tridentine Mass per month on Saturday night at 7:30.
Posted by: SiliconValleySteve at Mar 22, 2004 8:25:27 PM
Saint Michael the Archangel defend us from stupidity on stilts.
Posted by: Donald R. McClarey at Mar 22, 2004 8:27:53 PM
Amen, Fr. Wilson! As a layperson in the pews, I for one am horrified by the way we're so often subjected to the whims and vagaries of celebrants and liturgists who've been to one liturgical seminar or another and now foist the brunt of their "education" upon us, with the monitum "The Pope wants us to [insert liturgical innovation here] so we can be in keeping with [the new GIRM, Vatican II, a spirit of unity]." I pray that the long-expected disciplinary document on the liturgy clears the air and calls for rubrics to be enforced evenly so that I can pray, rather than worry about whether this is the parish I'm supposed to stand after communion, hold hands at the Our Father, conga to communion or hug everyone at the sign of peace. It been interesting to note that some of the most fascist liturgists I've encountered so readily criticize the "aberrations" of others (Rosary after Mass? kneeling after receiving God? horrors!) while at the same time having no problem ignoring those rules which they don't like (kneeling at the consecration, bowing at the "et incarnatus est").
From creative liturgists, libera nos Domine.
Posted by: Tim Ferguson at Mar 22, 2004 8:33:14 PM
There has been at least one previous round on this subject. This time I think I will simply quote verbatim something from Cardinal Mahony's pastoral letter on the Mass:
"Coming up with cash is a liturgical act."
God bless Mother Angelica
Posted by: David Kubiak at Mar 22, 2004 8:56:09 PM
Can someone please explain to me why standing during communion is supposed to be a sign of Being One Body (or whatever) anyway? Because some people standing to go to communion and some people kneeling before and after their communion somehow signifies disunity? So that the clergy and eucharistic ministers and choir and laity all are always standing to show all are of equal value to the Body? So we won't invidiously discriminate on the basis of body posture against people who can't kneel? I demand an explanation from whomever thought this was such a luminous idea guaranteed to forge Christian Community. Until then, I kneel and/or sit depending on the state of my bad feet.
Posted by: T. Marzen at Mar 22, 2004 9:15:11 PM
Peace, all.
While I believe the Communion Procession remains in theory more of a communal act than a collection of several to a thousand private ones, there is a heaping history of lay understanding behind the current practice of kneeling after the reception of Communion.
Maybe there's a thought to "catechize" the faithful that Mass is for communal prayer and if you want private prayer in a church you should come when you can be ... well ... private. That said, people like the convenince of both one-stop shopping and the "way we've always done it." The standing/kneeling issue isn't one I'd choose to broach unless a very mature community (say of vowed religious) wanted to discuss the relative merits of each position.
Since I know many liberals who feel as I do, I wish to triangulate myself from this practice. While it is true my bishop or pastor can make liturgical law different from other dioceses and/or parishes to some degree, this is not a fight worth engaging. Of course, I would put lay EM choreography into that category as well, but sadly, Rome has already seen fit to charge into the sanctuary bullishly. I predict lay people will be protesting a lot more liturgy "updates" at the rate we're going. Meanwhile, the vital liturgical issues lie untouched.
Posted by: Todd at Mar 22, 2004 9:16:56 PM
It's happening here in Milwaukee as well, and I don't like it. I choose to kneel,and will continue to kneel.
Posted by: nicole at Mar 22, 2004 9:29:30 PM
What is the issue with staying behind to say a group rosary after daily Mass? I think I can generally see where the GIRM guidelines are coming from (I can also appreciate where the protest comes from as well). But I can't see what's wrong with group prayer after Mass...
Doug
Posted by: dbr at Mar 22, 2004 9:30:24 PM
After 17 years I'm still not used to the way Catholics use the liturgy to beat up on each other. And even after all these years I wonder if it's really about the unity of the Church or just a bunch of sick control issues. Probably unity in some situations and sick control in others. Somehow the Orthodox don't seem to worry as much about it. Of course, they don't change things every few years.
I'll say one thing: I'd just like some smarmy EME to chastise me for kneeling: "We are ONE body here." One diseased body, I think. And God help the priest who calls me out if I genuflect at the wrong moment. At the age of 52, I have just come to realize life's too short to put up with a lot of religious bull mess.
Posted by: Ken at Mar 22, 2004 10:00:21 PM
It seems we've reached the point where "liturgy" has become an industry run by bored snobs, plain and simple. And the liturgists have to keep coming up with nonsensical theories (e.g., "Mass is no place for private prayer.") because, hey, they gotta earn their keep, right? It's all just heavy-handed silliness--sound and fury signifying job security.
Yep, the liturgy is broken and needs to be fixed. The first step would be to fire all the liturgists.
Posted by: ottanbrus at Mar 22, 2004 10:00:26 PM
ummmm... Rome charging into the sanctuary bullishly? Into the Roman Rite? am I missing something?
I'm also at a loss to understand how one triangulates oneself from something.
It must be late...
Posted by: Tim Ferguson at Mar 22, 2004 10:06:35 PM
Wait a minute. Did they put a splint on your knees? How can they physically keep you from kneeling? This always mystifies me. It's a little like 2 guys with nail clippers hijacking an airliner with 250 people in it...why are you just sitting there letting it happen? KNEEL.
Posted by: michigancatholic at Mar 22, 2004 10:19:35 PM
How much crap are people willing to tolerate before they say, "We have had enough and we are going to Malibu to beg Mel to let us in the ark before the flood waters rise (further)over our heads"? Will someone please explain again why the traditional Mass is not vastly superior to the Novus Ordo? Do Catholics in LA really want to spend the next 2 or 3 years fighting against this latest silliness, instead of giving God the worship that is due Him? Do Catholics really have nothing better to do?
Posted by: Bill at Mar 22, 2004 10:21:37 PM
I guarantee you, they will NOT go to the surgical supply store and buy 5000 pairs of splints. It would attract the newspapers...LOL.
Do you know where the property ends? Go there and stand there and pray the rosary for the church. They need all the help they can get. The more people join you the better. Right after Mass would be good. =)
Posted by: michigancatholic at Mar 22, 2004 10:24:11 PM
Ken, it's sick control issues. You should hear the potty-mouthing of the laity among the *music ministry* after mass. Many of us choose not to sing their inane hymnlets.
Posted by: michigancatholic at Mar 22, 2004 10:26:22 PM
