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January 27, 2005
Coming Home
Interesting article about a former United Methodist minister who is now RC (and has, incidentally, been accepted for a 3-year formation period to discern Roman Catholic priesthood). I was intrigued by his critique of the path of his denomination, which didn't center on the usual issues:
Meanwhile, Kurowski saw area Methodist churches, including Willow Creek Community Church in suburban Chicago, embrace styles of teaching and worship that, in his view, differ too much from early church traditions.
"I just came to the conclusion that Methodism was going to try every form of gimmickry to stay alive. It's very sad to me," Kurowski says.
He grew further disillusioned when the UMC honorably dismissed ministers so they could create nondenominational churches that focus on church growth more than on the traditions of early Christians, he says.
"I felt as though nobody cared, or the majority didn't care" (about following the church fathers' ways), he says.
A sidebar on the Coming Home Network, which has 981 members...that's a lot.
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"I just came to the conclusion that Methodism was going to try every form of gimmickry to stay alive."
Unfortunately we don't lack for such creatures ourselves, either.
But reinforcements like these help to stem that tide.
Posted by: Richard at Jan 27, 2005 10:04:37 AM
This was very moving. I keep hoping that my dad, who's Methodist, will become Catholic someday. The Mary thing and the communion thing seem to be his big stumbling blocks, too, while the messing about with church rules and services are the banes of his life. His own local church is pretty solid, but the more involved he gets in his denomination, the more crud elsewhere he gets to see.
Meanwhile, I have to admit that some of this stuff is the bane of my own life, when I venture outside my own archdiocese. Once again, I attended that really weird little Detroit parish for Mass (as it was the one I could get to) and got to see again the bizarre mix of seventies Mass with Hail Mary insert at the beginning of the Liturgy of the Eucharist. Once again, I got to hear what has to be one of the weirdest Eucharistic prayers possible, just staying this side of valid. ("God, you remember how the Rabbi Jesus said....") And we got to mill around for seven minutes shaking everybody in the world's hand. And then at the end, instead of the Sign of the Cross, we got "In the name of the Creator, the Redeemer...."
While the readings all talked about unity just as clearly as a poke in the ribs from God. So I couldn't even get too catty about it. Sigh.
I had an Evangelical friend along, to make things even more fun. She hadn't been able to get to church in a month of Sundays (she's in a wheelchair). I warned her. She thought I was exaggerating, but she had to admit I'd been moderate in my description.
Oh, well. Mass is Mass, as long as it _does_ stay this side of valid. I got my Sunday in, and so did she, and that's what matters. But boy, it's not fun to be torn between laughter, theological migraine, and worries about whether the Mass will turn out valid or not. (At least this year the priest didn't announce in his homily how he was disagreeing with the archbishop this week.) Nice people to talk to, and yeah, I'm glad my parishioner friend gave us a ride to his church, but geezy Pete! I think I'd rather be creative in my Christian practices _outside_ church, thankyouverymuch.
Posted by: Maureen at Jan 27, 2005 10:10:16 AM
I am happy to hear that the Vatican is giving a serious hearing to the issue of whether Methodist ministers can be ordained as priests, and not just former Episcopalians or Lutherans. This case is somewhat more complicated by the fact that this guy was baptized in the Catholic Church and then left it. One of the reasons why, in my mind, it is not normally a big deal for married Protestant ministers to become ordained priests in the Latin Rite is that these men were outside of the Catholic tradition to begin with and is not in the position to choose between a vocation to marriage or the priesthood. This is not true for a person within the Catholic tradition at all.
Posted by: Patrick Rothwell at Jan 27, 2005 10:11:25 AM
I didn't know that Willow Creek was a Methodist Church. You learn something new every day.
Posted by: Patrick Rothwell at Jan 27, 2005 10:13:33 AM
Patrick,
I think a number of former Protestant ministers who were neither Lutheran nor Anglican have been ordained Catholic priests.
Interestingly, Little Flower has a reputation in South Bend of being one of the more quirky Catholic parishes. I wonder how Kurowski finds it.
Posted by: Cheeky Lawyer at Jan 27, 2005 10:19:58 AM
Being a Methodist who is in the process of converting, I (of course) agree with Kurowski. I'm coming up on one year of the RCIA process, from informal discussions with the RCIA staff to preparation for joining this Easter. I've found that the balance of powers in the Catholic Church, where changes must be explained against the Bible, Tradition, and the Magisterium, is much, much better than the membership electing representatives every four years to hash out direction. Lately, too, I've found that the Catholic investigations into the meaning of the 10 Commandments far exceeds anything I was taught as a Methodist. Nice post, Amy, thanks!
Posted by: Eutychus Fell at Jan 27, 2005 10:33:12 AM
"I didn't know that Willow Creek was a Methodist Church." Neither did I. I have noticed that's it has become fairly common for some mainline denominations to drop their denomination from the name. There is a St. Andrews Episcopal church in my area that is now "St. Andrews Church".
Posted by: Press at Jan 27, 2005 10:54:10 AM
Well, it's trendy for Catholic churches to call themselves "The Christian Community of X" which can disguise the Catholic identity.
Posted by: Sandra Miesel at Jan 27, 2005 11:13:26 AM
I know a Catholic parish that calls itself "The Church of St. Mary." Sounds very Anglican--but the interior disabuses you of that notion quickly. Wall-to-wall semi-plush gold carpeting, which even covers the pews.
Posted by: Dale Price at Jan 27, 2005 11:18:30 AM
I, too, am glad that the Pastoral Provision is broader than I thought--BTW, is the document available online? I never particularly understood the restriction to Anglicans and Lutherans. If nothing else, ordaining evangelicals offers the prospect of immediate improvement in Catholic homiletics.
Posted by: Dale Price at Jan 27, 2005 11:22:10 AM
Willow Creek is not a Methodist Church. It is nondenominational. I live in the Chicago area and I am a United Methodist. That is incorrect information in the article. You can read about the history of Willow Creek on its own website, plus it is not listed in our conference's (like a diocese) church listing.
Posted by: Jennifer at Jan 27, 2005 11:24:14 AM
I wonder how many Catholics Duke University has created? (joke) It seems everytime I turn around another former divinity student or minister from Duke is becoming Catholic. My liturgy professor said for him it was reading Schmemann's Eucharist, and for others they have pointed, too, to the strong liturgical studies there.
Posted by: Ambrose at Jan 27, 2005 11:50:39 AM
That made me laugh, Ambrose, because I think it's true. I went there, but I'm still Methodist. Also, there are a lot of Catholics who go to Duke to study for their Ph.D in theology and wind up being teacher's assistants in the divinity school, so that may have something to do with it too.
Posted by: Jennifer at Jan 27, 2005 12:04:28 PM
The Anglican phrasing would be "Church of St. Mary the Virgin," Dale.
Posted by: Sandra Miesel at Jan 27, 2005 1:20:38 PM
Coming Home Network now has 982 members.
Posted by: Zhou De-Ming at Jan 27, 2005 1:24:49 PM
Sandra:
Ah--Good point. Now that I think about it, I haven't seen an Anglican Church dedicated to the Blessed Mother that didn't have "the Virgin" tagged on.
Posted by: Dale Price at Jan 27, 2005 1:59:09 PM
Maureen,
Alan Schreck's "Catholic and Christian" gently explains topics like Mary and the Real Presence without ostensibly aiming to convert a Protestant reader. It was just reissued to reflect Schreck's more recent thoughts on the Eucharist. You might buy it for your Dad.
Posted by: Rich Leonardi at Jan 27, 2005 2:03:25 PM
...'Until the Council of Trent in 1545, which affirmed the practice of celibacy for clergy, Catholic priests were allowed to marry, "so it's not as though this never existed," Sandi Kurowski says.'
Actually, celibacy as a requirement for Latin diocesan clergy pre-dates Trent by at least four centuries. It was mandated by the First Lateran Council in 1139 (see Denzinger-Hunermann #711). Before then, it had already become a common--but not yet universal--practice among them. (See DH 119 and 185.)
Posted by: Deke at Jan 27, 2005 2:06:42 PM
When there are visiting women priests to my husband's Episcopal church, I sometimes have to deal with that Creator Redeemer Sanctifier stuff...but they use the liturgy in the BCP. No Rabbi Jesus.
If I went to a CATHOLIC church and a priest did this, he would be lucky if I waited until after mass to confront him on it.
They aren't allowed to make up their own eucharistic prayers. It is illicit. The use of Creator, Redeemer, Sanctifier I have been told however inadvertantly involves one in the modalist heresy, as all members of the trinity are God and as God are Creator Redeemer and Sanctifier. One very smart female Episcopal priest says "In the name of the God who is Creator, Redeemer, Sanctifier" I think in order to avoid this heresy and also avoid saying "Father" too often. But a Catholic priest cannot change the Trinitarian formula at mass.
If people stood up and interrupted the proceedings whenever they did it, even if they called the police to haul them away, they would soon stop this stuff just to avoid the hassle!
Susan Peterson
but I wouldn't make a fuss about either a mistake or a tiny personal variation...one priest I know thinks "anxiety" means "taking care" and so he says "Save us from needless fear." I doubt if this is a problem and it has no dubious theological motivation.
SFP
Posted by: Susan Peterson at Jan 27, 2005 2:58:26 PM
Rich,
Does the "reissue" of Schreck's book have different text from the "original"?
I had assumed it was the same old book with a new cover.
Mio
Posted by: mio at Jan 27, 2005 3:14:15 PM
>>>there are a lot of Catholics who go to Duke to study for their Ph.D in theology and wind up being teacher's assistants in the divinity school, so that may have something to do with it too.<<<
I was one of those Catholic grad students, but I don't think I ever had Kurowski in class, so I can't take any credit.
In my day it was the two-progned attack of Geoffrey Wainwright and Stanley Hauerwas that usually did it (which is interesting, since both remain Methodists). Just last month, one of the professors, Reinhard Hutter, converted from Lutheranism to Catholicism.
Must be something in the water.
F. C. Bauerschmidt
Posted by: Frederick C. Bauerschmidt at Jan 27, 2005 3:25:26 PM
Mio,
In the introduction Schreck indicates he's modified a few of the passages concerning the Eucharist.
Posted by: Rich Leonardi at Jan 27, 2005 3:40:26 PM
How odd, Dr. Bauershmidt...I was on the phone to Loyola,trying to find a mailing address for Catholic Studies, probably at the precise moment you were posting.
Weird. Look for some books from me next week...
Posted by: amy at Jan 27, 2005 3:54:34 PM
Dear Friends,
It is very strange reading comment of others about your life in a blog, but thank you. This process has been very hard and your overall graciousness is overwhelming.
Please be sure that it was Dr. Geoffrey Wainwright's Systematic Theology class at Duke University, which taught me how to interpret icons and the meaning of the Immaculate Conception which helped, but my independent study of John Wesley's use of St. Macarius the Great which did it. I had to write an article for publication for the project. In it, I discovered that Wesley systematically edited out the Catholic understanding of original sin.
I would love to find out how many of my classmates have ended up Catholic, but they sure push that way. I am glad they did and do.
If anyone would like to ask me anything personally, I would love to help. Please go to http://www.MySpiritualAdvisor.com/advice.htm and use the form to ask.
Amy, did you use an RSS feed to catch this story?
Peace,
Mark Kurowski
Posted by: Mark Kurowski at Jan 27, 2005 4:55:05 PM
Yeah, that's what I heard. You show up at Duke a liberal Protestant, you take a Wainwright course, maybe have him as an advisor, and you leave Duke on your way to becoming a Roman Catholic. (another joke)
Posted by: Ambrose at Jan 27, 2005 8:44:37 PM
