Keep Praying...

Apparebntly, Terri's feeding tube was removed about 3pm.

Kevin Miller has some thoughts and prayers

Fr. Rob reminds us of Terri's "Exit Protocol"

Blogs for Terri

Peggy Noonan on the case

Comments

[Dave Pawlak]

Two things the government could do:

1) Cite Judge Greer in contempt of Congress. State cannot override Federal action.

2) Let the President issue an Executive Order to restore Terri's feeding tube, and institute an investigation. Send in the Secret Service to ensure that the order is being followed.

Two things we can do:

1) Keep badgering our Congressmen and Senators, and the White House

2) Pray.

[Colleen]

Lord. I feel like Terri is someone in my own family. This is a black day for all of us.

[chris K]

Dave Weldon of Florida was just interviewed on FOX and said that the President would now have to intervene with an executive order. Calls to the pres everyone??

Have you seen the report given by attorney Weller about the scene with Terri when explaining to her that her feeding tube was being removed? She said Terri cried and said!! "I want to live" several times and that it took some time to quiet her down. This Hospice is a real hell hole. It needs to be exorcised. It has the spirit of death everywhere. Pray the St. Michael prayer. I've e-mailed or called cable stations to try to get attorney Weller on.

Another attorney on CNN claimed that from Felos stated, there are 2 new filings in federal court and that he thought the federal court could then order the tube replaced.

Felos claimed that communion was given before her feeding tube was removed. He said that was by a Hospice priest....not her priest.

Poor Terri....and this happened at the 3:00 hour...the hour of Mercy.

[Jason]

"On Friday afternoon, less than a hour after probate court judge George W. Greer ignored federal subpoenas and ordered that Michael Schiavo remove the feeding tube from Terri which will cause her death by starvation, Terri Schiavo before multiple witnesses indicated that she wanted to live.

"According to attorney Barbara Weller, one of the attorneys representing Terri’s parents, Mary and Bob Schindler Sr., when her parents and attorneys visited Terri at the Woodside Hospice where she resides to tell her they were going to remove her feeding tube, Terri began to cry and tried to say 'I want to live'

"Attorney Weller said she had a difficult time calming Terri down."

http://www.theempirejournal.com/0319054_terri_schiavo_says_she_w.htm

[Peggy]

Dave P--I have the same thoughts. Why the heck cannot DOJ step in w/o legislation to investigate whether her civil rights are being trampled????? Why cannot Jeb (or even W) issue an executive order commuting the death sentence, as gov's do from time to time for death row inmates.

All the politicians are thinking that voting and spouting off self-righteously is enough. Stop this murder or ...well, I can't say on a family blog ;^) Peggy Noonan is right.

[chris K]

Can't the governor with DCF still take protective custody?

[Lynn]

Dear God, please help us. This is a travesty.
We can still pray.

[Gary Gunnels]

Dave Pawlak,

1) Cite Judge Greer in contempt of Congress. State cannot override Federal action.

Sure it can. You do realize we live in a federalist system of government, right? States are sovereign entities after all except where the Federal Constitution may intrude on their powers; since the Federal Constitution is a document of limited power, it clearly does not intrude everywhere or even most of the time. So the question is, does the Congress have the power in this instance to attack the sovereign power of a state judiciary? I don't believe the answer to that question is even remotely clear at this point. But it is certainly NOT true that a state cannot override a federal action.

2) Let the President issue an Executive Order to restore Terri's feeding tube, and institute an investigation. Send in the Secret Service to ensure that the order is being followed.

Again, we bump up against the issue of federalism. Where does Bush get Article II authority to do that?

[Gary Gunnels]

Jason,

I am simply not buying these comments about her stating anything about herself or her desire to live. If that's the case, sneak a video camera in there and have her start talking to it!

[Marc]

At 3pm -- the Hour of Mercy -- on a Friday. How sick is that?!?

[James Freeman]

You know, the GOP seems to be all hat and no horse on life issues. And now it seems to be actively targeting the working class and poor in Congress this session.

How does that comport with what Catholics believe in any way, shape or form? That's why I'm not a Republican any longer.

In September 1957, President Eisenhower sent the 101st Airborne to ensure the 14th Amendment rights of the "Little Rock Nine" and federalized the Arkansas National Guard. So it's not like the White House -- or the governor of Florida, for that matter -- has no leeway to take drastic measures in defense of civil liberties.

The question is one of political will and moral courage.

As the nation teeters on the precipice of becoming Holland With Nukes, I think the whole world should be very, very nervous.

[Sydney Carton]

"But it is certainly NOT true that a state cannot override a federal action."

Wrong. States are unable to override federal action. The 14th Amendment says that no state shall deprive anyone of LIFE, LIBERTY, OR PROPERTY, without due process of law. Section 5 of the 14th Amendment specifically says that Congress is empowered to enforce the Amendment (adding it to the list of Congresional enumerated powers). This came about, by the way, from the civil war, in which Congressional reconstruction efforts were being hampered by states which refused to accept the laws.

I don't know if the President could use his executive powers to do anything here, since he has no law to enforce as of yet. But if I were President, I'd do it and dare the Congress to impeach me. They wouldn't.

[Sydney Carton]

"As the nation teeters on the precipice of becoming Holland With Nukes, I think the whole world should be very, very nervous."

You mean where France is right now? Wasn't it last summer in which over 15,000 elderly people died because the rest of the populace was too busy partying at the riveria during a heat wave?

[Colleen]

Ya but Sydney they probably couldn't feed themselves, so what the heck.

[Gary Gunnels]

Sindey,

The 14th Amendment says that no state shall deprive anyone of LIFE, LIBERTY, OR PROPERTY, without due process of law.

And of course not all federal action falls within the purview of the 14th Amdendment (as the Supreme Court has stated repeatedly over the years). If indeed, the states could not override federal action, how pray reveal did the states override federal action with regard to the Brady Bill (Printz v. U.S., the Violence Against Women Act (United States v. Morrison and the Gun Free Schools Act (Lopez v. Lima). In each case a state ignored federal authority and the Supreme Court slapped the Federal government for overreaching its authority under the Constitution. This, to be frank, is BASIC CIVICS people.

[Gary Gunnels]

Sydney Carton,

To be blunt, the states are sovereign entities and there are areas where the federal government may not go with regard to that sovereignty. Just you ought to read the 11th Amendment if you still disbelieve me.

[Sydney Carton]

Gary,

The issue in Printz via the Brady Bill involved ordering state police officers to comply with federal law. That is much different than setting down conditions by which a state may not deprive someone of their life. Under your reasoning, the entire Voting Rights Act and the Civil Rights Act of 1964 would be considered unconstitutional, because it imposes on states various degrees of enforcement regarding basic civil rights.

Printz, while important to Con Law, is not applicable in this instance. States are perfectly sovereign, but they cannot deprive someone of their life without due process of law, a process by which Congress is specifically authorized to set standards for.

Lopez involved the Commerce clause, and the attempt to legislate via the commerce clause around schools, which were viewed as too remote in the sphere of commerce. It had NOTHING to do with the due process clause of the 14th Amendment.

Morrison again is likewise inapplicable, for similar reasons. This is not a commerce clause analysis, but a 14th Amendment analysis.

If you're going to engage in Constitutional Interpretation, you should know how to interpret a Constitution, Mr. Athiest.

[Gary Gunnels]

Sydney Carton,

And the other obvious point to be made is that Schaivo has not been deprived life without due process of law. Though we cannot read too much in the Supreme Court's denial of cert., it certainly means that court does not mean that there is some flagrant violation of the constitution involved.

[Sydney Carton]

Gary,

You give too much deference to your Robed Masters. In any event, Congress's investigatory power is plenary. They have unquestioned authority to subponea anyone they want, including the President of the United States (or even the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court). They can also pass a law regarding the enforcement of civil rights of people like Terri, setting the standard that an unwritten request to die isn't enough for a state to deprive someone of their life.

Additionally, I'm sure these powers are inherent at the state level as well, in Florida's Constitution, and allow the Florida legislature to also pass civil rights laws.

[Gary Gunnels]

Sydney Carton,

The issue in Printz via the Brady Bill involved ordering state police officers to comply with federal law.

And thus the state was overriding a federal action; namely, a federal command based on a federal law.

That is much different than setting down conditions by which a state may not deprive someone of their life.

And of course the comment wasn't directed to that narrow point. Let's quote the author again: State cannot override Federal action. Again, that clearly is NOT TRUE.

Under your reasoning, the entire Voting Rights Act and the Civil Rights Act of 1964 would be considered unconstitutional, because it imposes on states various degrees of enforcement regarding basic civil rights.

No it wouldn't be. Again, as I wrote in my original comment, the states are sovereign entities and that sovereignty may only be attacked where the federal government has the power to do so under its limited grant of authority. Clearly one of those limited grants of authority is the 14th Amendment. This does not mean that the "State cannot override Federal action." Now, quit being wilfully obtuse.

Printz, while important to Con Law, is not applicable in this instance.

Yes it is applicable. Again, it teaches that the claim that "State[s] cannot override Federal action" is clearly in error.

Lopez involved the Commerce clause, and the attempt to legislate via the commerce clause around schools, which were viewed as too remote in the sphere of commerce. It had NOTHING to do with the due process clause of the 14th Amendment.

And when, pray reveal, did I state anything about the 14th Amendment until you brought it up? I didn't. I was quite obviously speaking to the general claim made about the nature of our federal system. Duh!

If you are going to engage in a discussion with me, pick up some reading comprehension skills. :)

[Dan Crawford]

Mr. Gunnels obviously believes that his mission is to teach the rest of us benighted fools. I would ask the Exalted Ascended Master just what it is he wishes us to learn so that we can be as intelligent and as insightful (not to say arrogant) as he.

Is it his purpose to shut down blogs he doesn't like or which challenge his rather strange view of the world?

[Roberto]

I still recommend, as in the thread just below this one, that you guys read "Mathematical Cranks" by Underwood Dudley. It would improve your understanding of human psychology and of what Gary is trying to say.

[amy]

Yeah, this is two threads that Gary has hijacked in the past couple of hours. Do us all a favor folks, and don't engage him. And Gary, whoever you are, don't post or write me accusinjg me of suppressing opinions different than mine. If you read through two years' of threads on Terri Schiavo, even recently, you would find diversity of opinion and hard questions asked and disputed here. It's a matter of tone and purpose to comments. And folks, you know how this goes - we get into this kind of web of dispute, the troll ends up getting banned and perhaps his and all responding comments get deleted, meaning you've wasted your time. So...don't. There are better things to do!

[Gary Gunnels]

Sydney Carton,

In any event, Congress's investigatory power is plenary. They have unquestioned authority to subponea anyone they want, including the President of the United States (or even the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court).

Actually, the case law is extremely muddled in this area, but it is clear from cases like McGrain v. Daughtery that there are bounds to the investigative authority of the Congress (as there should be, since that authority could be used for great mischief if it indeed were boundless). Also see US v. US House of Representatives and the ATT case concerning warrantless national security wiretaps. So to conclude, there authority is not unquestioned and it does have its bounds (just like the authority every other branch of government).

They can also pass a law regarding the enforcement of civil rights of people like Terri, setting the standard that an unwritten request to die isn't enough for a state to deprive someone of their life.

Maybe or maybe not.

...allow the Florida legislature to also pass civil rights laws.

The Florida legislature already tried to pass a law which would have stopped her death and the Florida Supreme Court overturned it.

[Gary Gunnels]

amy,

Apparently disagreement and discussion equals "hi-jacking" to you. Talk about an echo chamber. :) Oh how far have we sunk from the "Society of Letters." :(

Dan Crawford,

How, pray reveal, am I shutting down this blog? If you don't want to engage in a discussion with me, you are perfectly able to you know, ignore me. Apparently you want an echo chamber around here though where everything that is stated reinforces your views.

[Sydney Carton]

Amy,

At your request, I'll say my last to Gary and be done with it.

Gary: You're turning into Mr. Literal on me. Fine. States can sue the Federal Government, and the Supreme Court, via its powers of Judicial Review, can override Federal Action when it is found that such action is unconstitutional. Who's doing the overriding here? The states? The Supreme Court? The Constitution? Call it what you will, in your "general claim" on this "narrow point." My concern and cares are larger than yours. Have fun with your victory, in your small universe of ideas.

And with that, he's on "ignore" mode.

[Gary Gunnels]

Sydney Carton,

You're turning into Mr. Literal on me.

I was always Mr. Literal. That's abundantly clear from my original statement. I'm going to suggest that you read Getting To Yes; it will stop you from jumping to unwarranted conclusions.

[breda]

I wonder:
In what sense is Michael still Terri's husband? Certainly living with another woman and having children with her is grounds for annulment/divorce.

What is the language of the vows he took when he married Terri? Hasn't he violated those vows in a legal sense?

The point of this is that his legal standing is based upon his being the husband of Terri...but is he? Cannot her parents challenge that legal standing?

It seems to me he forfeited his rights as husband when he moved in with another woman and started a family with her.

[Fr. Rob Johansen]

What I am amazed at is how, even in this little debate, these questions of the minutiae of constitutional law quickly crowded out debate of the substantive issues. As one of the doctors I interviewed for my National Review Online article, Dr. Bell, said, "medical realities are no longer governing this case." He added that it seemed to him that medical issues concerning the care of the patient had been subsumed by legal issues."

Talk about prophetic words...

[Sydney Carton]

That's probably because the factual issue of whether Terri is really PVS was a preordained result.

[Carrie]

I had the same reaction, Father.

There are so many people involved, and yet no one seems to have a clue how to save this woman. Two men hold her life in their hands and everyone else is powerless? How can this be? She is being murdered right before the eyes of the world, and the world is watching it happen.

Think of a crime scene where a helpless woman is being beaten up by a group of thugs, and several people are standing around watching and doing nothing.

This is America? This is the land of the free? Our hallowed slogan is becoming a travesty today. Michael Schiavo could not beat his wife to death. But he can starve her to death? This nightmare is unbelievable. It's way past time to wake up!

[Tom Kelty]

What do you make of the very recent political grand-standing by people like Mr. Delay, who sorely needs some way to divert attention from his other serious problems. To me the political exploitation is the cruelest and saddest final paragraph. And Fr. Rob I want to thank you for presenting on your blog, the Hospice Care plan for Terri's final days. It is reassuring to know that they are following such a thoughtful, professional process.

[Michael Shea]

If our society is not capable of protecting this helpless woman from being starved to death then our society has failed completely... but maybe we already have failed - back in 1973 when we sanctioned child murder..

So why do we pay taxes again?

[Donald R. McClarey]

"What do you make of the very recent political grand-standing by people like Mr. Delay, who sorely needs some way to divert attention from his other serious problems."

That he is someone who understands the sanctity of human life in a time when many do not. If this is "grand-standing", this country needs much, much more of it.

[B Knotts]

It seems to me that there was quite a bit of discussion about torture here recently.

Well...here we have a case of deliberate and obvious torture.

[Kathleen]

Well this is going to take me a moment, and long post. My sister's, husband's ,brother's ex-wife is in this same position. Thankfully he was so desperate to get on with his life he divorced her.

After the birth of their fourth child, she had a massive stroke. She is similar to Terri completely.

B/c of the divorce the four children never see their mother, at all. Not by court order but by the culture of death. My sister's, sister in-law became a byproduct.

It made me sick with anger then and it does now with regard to Terri. Michael: give her to the care of the ones who will take care of her. If you want to move on, do so. I doubt that this is what you want to do, given your actions, but get on with it. Be glad you don't have kids to explain it too.

This is the culture of death on parade. With all of the facts we have been presented on blogs, in the MSM, Terri has not been given due process, in my opinion. At least my sister's sister in-law is alive. And all she requires is food, water, and medical care.

[michigancatholic]

There's money involved. There's also some interesting information about Michael's previous behavior that he might feel threatened about. He's not inclined to walk away for one or the other or both of these reasons.

[James Freeman]

There are so many people involved, and yet no one seems to have a clue how to save this woman. Two men hold her life in their hands and everyone else is powerless? How can this be? She is being murdered right before the eyes of the world, and the world is watching it happen.

This case is the Passion and Kitty Genovese all rolled into one. A giant mirror is being held up to our very, very sick society and, boy, the sight is not a pretty one.

[michigancatholic]

Tom Kelty,
When they get done getting rid of the unwanted babies and the old and the sick and get around to looking for the Catholics, remind me that you're first in line because you think that this crap is acceptable.

[James Freeman]

Tom Kelty writes:

And Fr. Rob I want to thank you for presenting on your blog, the Hospice Care plan for Terri's final days. It is reassuring to know that they are following such a thoughtful, professional process.

It looks like we all picked the wrong day to stop smoking crack. Stone-cold sober, the cognitive dissonance here is almost too much to endure.

Would Tom be saying the same thing about the SS guards if they had chloroformed the death-camp victims before pumping in the Zyklon-B?

[James Freeman]

Could this be what the Schiavo case ultimately is all about . . . ripping off all those legions of old folks in Florida?

Links:

http://straightupwsherri.blogspot.com/2005/03/whats-really-driving-death-train-for.html

http://www.justiceforfloridaseniors.org/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=27&Itemid=2

[al]

The 10th and 14th protect a right to sodomy, but not to life. . .right.

That's thoughtful jurisprudence.

[Gerard E.]

Bad time to have Alzheimer's Disease. Or suffer from a broken spine. Or rhematoid arthritis. Makes us look like "Holland With Nukes," as someone else observed. More prayer needed. Along with action in Washington.

[lourdes]

The links James Freeman mentions are important to show potential motivation in guardianship cases. I have been involved in guardianship in NYC and Long Island. Recently the guardianship law in NY was overhauled because judges were doling out plum cases to their friends and benefactors. A guardianship provides a pot of money from which many people get paid and it does not necessarily benefit the incapacitated person as it should. You would be scandalized if you sat in guardianship court and saw how easy it is for a person to be deemed incapacitated. I joke with my friends that they better be nice to their family or they will have a guardian appointed in no time. And that is only half joking! The review of guardianship accounts is also very shabby and significant sums of money can go unaccounted for. And, as for the medical evidence, it is ridiculous. In fact, in New York you cannot normally present medical evidence of incapacity because of privacy reasons. The court can bring in their own psychiatrist, and that is another joke. This is an area of law that is rife with major problems.

[Charles M. de Nunzio]

How about some action at the Suncoast Hospice? How about some of that much-vaunted "civil disobedience" that the leftists so dearly loved back when it furthered their pet causes in the Sixties? If it was a good thing to use to force an end to racial segregation, then SURELY it is much more imperative to use it to at least get this woman her Last Rites, if not to prevent her death outright!

[Hunk Hondo]

By all means read Peggy Noonan's fine piece--and if you are feeling masochistic, the Journal's readers responses. After slogging through them I was more depressed than I had been Friday afternoon, which I had not thought possible. Many, of course, showed that they don't know the grotesque facts of the case--or that, courtesy of our media lords, they "know" much that isn't so. From them we hear that this is what Terri wanted, that we should trust our courts, that it is a state matter, etc. etc. These I don't blame; they know not what they do. But quite a few other posts have a strong whiff of brimstone about them. A man (pardon me, a male) from Pennsylvania called Terri a "bag of nothing" and, sneering at the Schindlers' visual documentation of her responsiveness, said that he "could do as well with the last deer I killed). I was so tempted to track down his address and tell him that the last deer--or the last cockroach--that he killed was more worthy of life than he. This creature claimed to be a "conservative Republican", and I don't doubt it. There is, alas, a compost heap of such conservatives. As I left the site I was bitterly reminded of Albany's line in King Lear: "Wisdom and virtue to the vile/Seem vile. Filths savor but themselves."
dlers' ratrherhim.

[Todd]

An "outside" comment on these two threads. It is true that Mr Gunnels began his posting in responding to other people in each thread who had "fiskable" notions. But it is also true that those responding to him eagerly took the discussion farther afield.

Note his response to Neil: not terribly informed or detailed, in comparison to his reponse to less able writers. He was quite accurate in describing the frequent lapse to personal attack by those who could not or did not refute his points. And he is quite correct (as was Amy) in suggesting if you don't want to engage him, just don't respond.

For the record, he's welcome on my blog any time.

[Norris]

Pray reveal?

[Hunk Hondo]

Sorry, forgot to delete those scraps at the end.

[Gary Gunnels]

Fr. Rob Johansen,

Its too bad you questioned the truthfulness of one of the doctors involved in the case by arguing that his background as a right to die advocate clouded his vision without mentioning that the doctors you cite in your article are associate with "right to life" groups. Why the double-standard?

[Donald R. McClarey]

Fr. Rob Johansen,

"Its too bad you questioned the truthfulness of one of the doctors involved in the case by arguing that his background as a right to die advocate clouded his vision without mentioning that the doctors you cite in your article are associate with "right to life" groups. Why the double-standard?"

Exactly the reason why an MRI is needed in this case. All together now Gary, experts are often biased, but an MRI is needed additional evidence. Or do you think that letting this poor woman die of dehydration is so important that no further evidence as to her medical condition is warranted?