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April 23, 2005
An Open Letter to Maureen Dowd:
Shut. Up.
Oh, I forgot.
Dear Ms. Dowd:
Shut. Up.
It's not often that I say that, especially to a fellow writer, for I'm a firm and unyielding believer in free speech, not just on the legal level, but on the moral level as well. Writers may write what they want, publishers may publish what they want, vendors may sell what they want, readers may read what they want.
But this is the point to which your ignorant snipes have driven me: I want you to just shut up and stop writing about anything related to the Catholic Church.
It's not that I'm reacting against your views, simply as your views. There are plenty of folks out there writing about Catholicism from perspectives that aren't mine. Oh well.
But none of them are in your unique, rather privileged position: the op-ed page of the New York Times twice a week, your columns usually high on the "most e-mailed sidebar," one of the more well-known, if not respected pundits in the United States, and a self-identified Catholic, to boot.
And along with that, none of them are writng quite as much ignorant tripe as you are. E.J. Dionne may have set my teeth grinding on three separate occasions this week, but at least he sort of knows what he's talking about, and one can see, through his ideology, a basic, if flawed understanding of what the Catholic faith is, and a small openness to seeing Benedict XVI as he is, not as he would have him to be.
But you? Can I ask you just what the hell is the matter with you?
I mean - do you want people to think you're stupid? Because if you do - congratulations. You're doing a fantastic job.
The two, from rural, conservative parts of their countries, want to turn back the clock and exorcise New Age silliness. Mr. Cheney wants to dismantle the New Deal and go back to 1937. Pope Benedict XVI wants to dismantle Vatican II and go back to 1397. As a scholar, his specialty was "patristics," the study of the key thinkers in the first eight centuries of the church.
They are both old hands at operating in secrecy and using the levers of power for ideological advantage. They want to enlist Catholics in the conservative cause, turning confession boxes into ballot boxes with the threat that a vote for a liberal Democrat could lead to eternal damnation.
Pope Benedict XVI wants to dismantle Vatican II and go back to 1397.
Earth to Maureen: No, he doesn't.
It's that simple. No, he doesn't. I mean, what does that mean, anyway? Do you have a clue, or is that just a suitably medieval date you pulled out of your - hat?
I too, as I start in the service that is proper to the Successor of Peter, wish to affirm with force my decided will to pursue the commitment to enact Vatican Council II, in the wake of my predecessors and in faithful continuity with the millennia-old tradition of the Church. Precisely this year is the 40th anniversary of the conclusion of this conciliar assembly (December 8, 1965). With the passing of time, the conciliar documents have not lost their timeliness; their teachings have shown themselves to be especially pertinent to the new exigencies of the Church and the present globalized society.
Do you know what Vatican II was all about? Do you? Do you know what Pope Benedict has said about it over the past forty years? Do you know what he said about it last week?
Didn't think so.
As a scholar, his specialty was "patristics," the study of the key thinkers in the first eight centuries of the church.
Ooooooh. Scary! Would it be better if his specialty was "pundistics," the study of half-baked scribblings of the 21st century that will be forgotten next week?
Thank God his specialty wasn't a first-century guy who hung out with fishermen and lepers.
Oh.
I could spend all morning with this, but I won't because frankly, while you need it, you don't deserve it. This morning's column is an abuse of the space, an abuse of the position that you're privileged to hold. It evinces absolutely no awareness of real news, only of soundbites, stereotypes, and protest signs waved outside of St. Patrick's Cathedral. It's absolutely inexcusable for you to presume to educate the country on the background, priorities and intentions of this pope when you obviously don't know anything about him and, most crucially, don't seem to have read a single word he's spoken over the past five days. I know you're busy but it seems to me it's like - your freakin' job - to be informed.
But maybe I just don't get it. I've got a Master's degree in religion, I've taught school, and I've written a slew of books. I value understanding, knowledge, research and the truth. I am loathe to open my mouth and opine about anything unless I really have looked into it. There's a couple of reasons for that: first, I like to be based in reality. Secondly: I don't like looking stupid.
Is that not a Blue State value?
Huh.
So do us all - and the truth - a favor. Take a vow of silence regarding this Pope and most Catholic stuff until you've read up on it. There's this thing: it's called the internet. You can find almost anything on it, including stuff the Pope said, like, today. It's cool.
Call me. I'll give you some tips. It's okay. We can work on this.
But until then, do yourself a favor. And write about something else.
Posted by Amy Welborn | Permalink
Comments
If Ms. Dowd were to write on sujects about which she had some substantial knowledge, I believe her columns would be filled with New York literary gossips and diatribes about failed relationships with men. Cut her some slack Amy, even ignorant writers need to earn a living.
Posted by: Donald R. McClarey at Apr 23, 2005 10:29:15 AM
Amy,
Dowd is a provacateur. It's her job to start the media flame wars. In that regard she is really no different say Rush Limbaugh. Surely she's not any nastier.
However, I am curious why EJ Dione would upset you:
"I worry that Pope Benedict sees liberal Catholics primarily as products of the worst excesses of the '60s and not as people who are genuinely grateful for the Catholic tradition and the Church's efforts since Pope John to interpret it anew for our times. Many of us know that modernity urgently needs criticism and agree with the new Pope on the importance of asserting that truth exists. We remain Catholic precisely because we think that the Church's emphasis on the sacramental and the communal provides a corrective to a culture that overemphasizes the material and lifts up the narrowest forms of individualism.
But we also think that not all that is new is bad. Our Church was soft on slavery. It was terribly slow to embrace democracy. It still does not seem to understand that the desire of women for power in the Church reflects legitimate--and, yes, Christian--claims to justice, not weird ideological enthusiasms. Those who say that change in the Church is simply capitulation to a flawed culture must explain whether they really think the Church would be better off if it had not come to oppose slavery, endorse democracy, and resist anti-Semitism and other forms of religious intolerance."
What in the above statement is factually wrong or upsetting?
Posted by: daniel duffy at Apr 23, 2005 10:41:10 AM
I disagree with Donald. You should send the letter to Ms. Dowd with dispatch, notwithstanding Donald's predictible overly-sensitive protestations. ;-)
Posted by: Mike Petrik at Apr 23, 2005 10:41:25 AM
The desire for power, whether by women or men, has little to do with justice in the Christian sense.
Posted by: Mike Petrik at Apr 23, 2005 10:44:08 AM
Daniel:
Um, did I quote that particular passage? from Dionne? No? Gee, I don't think I did. So why are you holding it up as a straw man? Er...straw passage? Did I say that that particular passage set my teeth grinding? Gee, no, I don't think I did. Stick to the topic, which is Maureen Dowd's column .
I still haven't heard from you. You still have a fake email...
Oh, and for those who wonder what I mean when I talking about "hijacking a thread" - there's your definition.
If anyone ever wants me to start a thread on a particular story, just email me. I've done it countless times before.
Posted by: amy at Apr 23, 2005 10:44:36 AM
I'd sort of like to pile on here but will just content myself with saying "Bravo!".
Well, okay, just one thing: Dowd is a walking, talking contradiction of liberals' belief that they're smarter than everybody else.
Posted by: Maclin Horton at Apr 23, 2005 10:51:13 AM
Well said (written) Amy !!! Ms. Dowd is certainly not the only ignoramus in a sea of media ignorami.It became apparent early on that few of them, even so-called Catholics like Chris Matthews don't know ANYTHING about the Church. The endless parade of heretics trotted out to "explain" the selection process like ABC's (Fr.) McBrien and a madder than a wet hen Kookie Roberts really hammered that home. I am consoled by the fact that the networks and the MSM have had an ongoing dramatic decline in viewership and readership. This will likely continue as people search for alternate news sources on the internet and discover blogs like yours. Keep up the good work !
Also your suggestion to Ms Dowd is really an act of charity to end her looking like the fool she is to the wider world.
Posted by: Joe Giardina at Apr 23, 2005 10:55:03 AM
Dowd's column reminds me of my senior thesis, written many years ago. My advisor gave me 2 names and said "compare them". I knew him well enough to know he meant "attack them". So I did, making connections where there weren't any, really. I received "Honors" because I gave him what he wanted, in spades. Dowd is doing that. Your beef, ultimately, is with the editors, owners and key advertisers at the Times. She's just giving them what they want, disgraceful and dishinest though it may be.
Posted by: jtbf at Apr 23, 2005 10:57:15 AM
Mr. Duffy, Rush Limbaugh doesn't have a Pulitzer prize, or a regular column in the nation's "paper of record." I'm no fan of Mr. Limbaugh's, but even you must realize that Ms. Dowd is given a respect simply from her position on the NYT that Mr. Limbaugh will never get.
Posted by: Andrea Harris at Apr 23, 2005 11:02:00 AM
First Bush, then Benedict. Tough year for Maureen Dowd.
It's been a real education reading the liberal commentary on Benedict around the blogosphere and MSM. Nor am I by any means someone who doesn't have issues with Church teaching. But here's the thing: it is Church teaching. Almost all of the electors were appointed by John Paul II, yes? Said John Paul reaffirmed Church teaching on sexuality many times over, correct? Homosexuality, abortion, etc., has there been a scintilla of evidence that the Church was tacking left on those issues? So how can an Andrew Sullivan declare: "It would be hard to over-state the radicalism of this decision." ? How can Maureen Dowd act as if the Church is blazing some new and terrifying path? Sorry, Maureen, same road, different driver.
It's been said before: Dowd came into her own during the Clinton years, during a brief less-serious time when style and cleverness were adequate. She just lacks depth. She is not hopeless as a writer--somebody somewhere linked to a deeply affecting column she wrote about her mother in a nursing home. And among other things it rang true because she knew the subject all too well.
You know the old saying, Amy--write what you know. You've got it nailed. She just doesn't know what she's talking about here.
Posted by: Christopher Rake at Apr 23, 2005 11:02:10 AM
Amy, you and I have had our differences. However, in all fairness, someone who won't supply a real email address doesn't deserve an answer.
Posted by: Nancy at Apr 23, 2005 11:03:33 AM
EJ Dione and daniel duffy:
"Those who say that change in the Church is simply capitulation to a flawed culture must explain whether they really think the Church would be better off if it had not come to... resist anti-Semitism"
This is another tired old canard based in ignorance of the facts. In this regard, Vatican 2 merely restated what had been stated in the Catechism of the Council of Trent in 1566 which was itself a summary of long existing attitudes on the subject. Read the documents. Look it up. It is a fact.
Posted by: stuart w at Apr 23, 2005 11:10:25 AM
This country (or the English-speaking world) needs a nationwide, daily newspaper that comes from an orthodox Christian view. Written by Christians. Don't know how that would happen, but it sure would be nice. Maybe Tom Monaghan and Philip Anschutz could team up with the Focus on the Family organization to produce it. I'd be glad to lay it out and copy edit it. Heck, I'd move to whatever city it was located in a minute. Maybe St. Louis? Chicago?
Posted by: Mark Thompson-Kolar at Apr 23, 2005 11:25:39 AM
Amy,
Don't you dare mail that letter - unless you allow all of us to sign it too!
Posted by: JT at Apr 23, 2005 11:30:09 AM
Amy, you nailed right on the head what upset me most after reading MoDo's column today:
But none of them are in your unique, rather privileged position: the op-ed page of the New York Times twice a week, your columns usually high on the "most e-mailed sidebar," one of the more well-known, if not respected pundits in the United States, and a self-identified Catholic, to boot.
Exactly. I only happened to read her column because I saw it ranked #2 on the Most E-Mailed list - on the side of Peter Steinfels' "Beliefs" column, which I found to be such a dead-on breath of fresh air:
Unfortunately, when speculation began about the consequences of his election for American Catholics, the news media could only trot out the usual checklist of issues: contraception, abortion, homosexuality, sexual abuse crisis, ordination of women and so on.
To go from Steinfels, who was trying to give a deeper understanding of and a new angle on the effects of Benedict's papacy, to Dowd, who basically threw up one of her usual "oh-so-clever" analogy bits, was incredibly dispiriting. And to see that so many people were sending her ignorant piece around... it's depressing.
She may be a "liberal" to some of you, but I don't think she has an ideology - all she cares about are personalities. She's just plain superficial.
Posted by: Ted at Apr 23, 2005 11:41:27 AM
1. Maureen Dowd sought a clever parallel between the two supposed powers-behind-the-throne: Cheney and Ratzinger. It was too clever by half, even to a self-professed progressive classicist like me. I'd rather read her when she's whacking the eminently whackable Bush and Cheney. (Did you write your letter to the editor yet?)
2. Dionne is another matter. I think he knows more than you're giving him credit for. He also is willing, like many of us, to wait and see what the new pope is willing to do now that he's the power-ON-the-throne. There are positive signs that mere personal loyalty will no longer be a sufficient condition for papal favor in all areas (Maciel being a good example). Dionne is giving him room. You should give Dionne room too.
Posted by: RP Burke at Apr 23, 2005 11:44:18 AM
To paraphrase John Schultz (of Catholic Light):
Is it morally permissible to kick a cat named Maureen Dowd?
Posted by: Dev Thakur at Apr 23, 2005 11:52:33 AM
One of the tragedies of the past forty years is that people believe that what occurred was what was prescribed by the second Vatican council, when, in fact, much of what visibly occurred was a result rather of the rejection of what the council actually taught, as our Holy Father has previously noted.
As a result, when any "reform of the reform" is proposed, in order to bring about the true implementation of the council, those so misinformed flail their arms in protest at what they perceive as retrogression.
Posted by: B Knotts at Apr 23, 2005 12:00:26 PM
Yeah, Amy, cut her some slack. It's been so long since her shadow crossed the threshhold of the church that she'll think the holy water's for slurping (assuming the church has holy water)the next time she attends a funeral.
Posted by: Dan Crawford at Apr 23, 2005 12:10:41 PM
One of the tragedies of the past forty years is that people believe that what occurred was what was prescribed by the second Vatican council, when, in fact, much of what visibly occurred was a result rather of the rejection of what the council actually taught, as our Holy Father has previously noted.
Very true, this happens all the time. Newspapers always describe Vatican II as "the Council that abolished the Latin Mass", when in fact, Vatican II specifically called for the retention of Latin in the Mass. I don't expect secular newspapers to be theologians, but this is a simple fact that you'd think they would check on before claiming what Vatican II actually did. They just report on the well known "Spirit of Vatican II", rather than verifying its letter.
Posted by: Jason at Apr 23, 2005 12:13:44 PM
When I read Dowd's column this morning, I don't think I ever been more angry about a newspaper article. I know she's just an opinion writer. I know she's supposed to be a provocateur. But really, her whole argument against Benedict is based upon an utter lie: "Pope Benedict XVI wants to dismantle Vatican II and go back to 1397." Benedict was one of the ARCHITECTS of Vatican II. Is it now OK for even an opinion writer to make up facts out of thin air? What about journalistic integrity and ethics? What about the Times' editors and fact checkers? Why did they let this get by? Is it typical for Times' columnists to make up facts and tell lies in support of their arguments? I have always disagreed with the opinions of many of the columnists in the Times. However, until now, I always trusted that you could believe the news they conveyed to you as fact. A few weeks ago there was a column by NY Times columnist Thomas Friedman on the same op-ed page. He was lamenting how public confidence and trust in journalists had plummeted. Well, this is why, Mr. Friedman: some journalists (not all) have a very tenuous relationship with the truth. And they use lies to smear people. I am going to write the Times' ombudsman and demand that Dowd be forced to print a retraction.
Posted by: John P Sheridan at Apr 23, 2005 12:17:30 PM
You should write the NYT and WaPo an op-ed piece from this! Excellent & high time. (I didn't see Kookie/Cokie this last 10 days, but she was a classmate of mine in college.)
Posted by: hilary at Apr 23, 2005 12:19:54 PM
Dev:Please don't turn this thread into another Cat War!
Posted by: Hunk Hondo at Apr 23, 2005 12:30:41 PM
MoDo has quite honestly gone to pieces as a journalist. I used to read her sometimes. Now I only glance with one eye toward her column in the Gainesville Sun (a New York Times regional newspaper). She's predictably awful and I'm too short of time to have any to waste on her or Cynthia Tucker. At the same time, I am aware of the damage that she does. And I appreciate folks like Amy, who let me know what the latest foolishness and venom is. When I hear it come out of the mouths of my oh-so-dim liberal friends, I know the source and can reply accordingly.
Posted by: Mary Jane at Apr 23, 2005 12:31:45 PM
I've had this recurring dream for the past 3 or 4 nights of attending the LA Religious Ed Congress with a t-shirt proclaiming "The Cafeteria is Closed".
I can't imagine what MoDo had in mind when she coined that, but I think it may turn out to be the perfect motto for this pontificate.
Fantasy: Wouldn't it be great if BXVI chose the Latin version (anyone?) as his "Totus Tuus"?
Posted by: Scrappy at Apr 23, 2005 12:32:25 PM
Well said, Amy. I linked to it.
And, pace Daniel Duffy, Dowd is not "a provacateur." To call her that would imply that she's done her homework. Ann Coulter is a provacatuer. Dowd, on the other hand, is a mouthy will-0-the-wisp with her fingers on the zeitgeist as refracted through cocktail parties in Manhattan.
Maybe you have time to write a similar open letter to Andrew Sullivan?
Well done, I say again. And thank you.
Posted by: Patrick O'Hannigan at Apr 23, 2005 12:38:46 PM
She doesn't know anything about history, either: "Mr. Cheney wants to dismantle the New Deal and go back to 1937."
1937? The New Deal was substantially enacted by that time. Very little was done after 1937. (Sorry, history teacher here. Can't help it sometimes.)
BTW, for those who don't want to give out their "real" personal email addresses, why not establish a separate hotmail (or similar web-based account) for more "public" use?
Posted by: Kathie at Apr 23, 2005 12:47:01 PM
Don't they say that all Dowd's family members are religiously orthodox and politically conservative? Why can't they talk sense into her?
Posted by: James Kabala at Apr 23, 2005 12:47:06 PM
MD is so predictable, I am not sure why anyone reads her more than once. Give me the first sentence of any piece she writes and I or anybody for that matter, can write the rest. I found this topic interesterest, particularly enjoyed Patrick's dead on analyis of Dowd as provacateur, so I read her piece. Why is it that the media finds the fact that a leader of the Church is an absolutist so "frightening"? One of the Pope's titles is "Defender of the Faith". we need men who provide moral clarity in these times. Pope Benedict is one who understands that people sin, he just wants us to quit calling it by other names in the spirit of "tolerance". As G.K. Chesterton said; "Tolerance is the virtue of a man without conviction." Good blog, came here through BeliefNet, will be back.
Posted by: Paul Gross at Apr 23, 2005 12:53:09 PM
Kathie:
I don't mean to imply that all fake-emails are unacceptable. Lots of people here use them here, and that's generally okay. The problem is when someone comes on board and starts dominating things, as dennis has, and offers no authentic email so other readers can engage him, or, more importantly, so I can contact him if I have anyh problems with what he's doing. It's my blog, and I have to have a mechanism to deal with people who are dominating, short of banning, which I generally don't like to do.
Posted by: amy at Apr 23, 2005 12:56:50 PM
Dear author,
I fully agree with your sentiments,
however I would encourage you to not be
so caustic. Telling someone to "shut up",
even if it is not something you'd normally
do, paints your ideas passionate beyond
reason. Besides, would Jesus, Mary or even
Benedict XVI want you to go on the offensive
in such a way?
"Kill" them with compassion.
I enjoy your work. Keep it up.
Posted by: Mike A. at Apr 23, 2005 1:01:09 PM
Hilary, since you mentioned college with Cokie, did you go to Manhattanville College of the Sacred Heart? I know her sister did. Those were the days, greatly missed.
Posted by: mville70 at Apr 23, 2005 1:11:00 PM
YES! Truly true! Amen, amen!
Maureen, please come home. Your Church is diminished by your absence. Come home, drink deep the living waters, swim in teaching and tradition, and then help the rest of us. From where you are right now, you're not really helping, and you're sure to dry out and whither.
Posted by: Dennis at Apr 23, 2005 1:17:55 PM
By the way, not that it matters much here, but I'm not the dennis Amy is referring to above. I almost never post here.
Posted by: Dennis at Apr 23, 2005 1:22:24 PM
Scrappy,
Maybe "Contra Tempora" ( "Against the Times" ) would really set MoDo's teeth on edge !
Agreeing with a previous post, the shallowness of Ms. Dowd's bilious blasts characterize her writing and thinking. If she is a Catholic, why the Catholic-baiting attitude ?
Posted by: Ed at Apr 23, 2005 1:24:47 PM
From your lips to MoDo's ears. Please oh please send it to the editor, if only to give us the vicarious satisfaction.
James, I have a feeling that Maureen's role as the black sheep of the family only serves to encourage her. I heard an interview with her (C-SPAN maybe?...regarding her fake book, a compilation of columns) and actually came away feeling somewhat sorry for her. She seems more than a little bitter and unhappy (I've read some of her stuff on male/female relationships and it's downright sad). In the interview she said yes, she's at odds on politics with her whole family but she loves them and vice versa. She talked about this whole Shakespeare dynamic she has tried to apply to her writings about the Bush family and sounded like a bad armchair psychologist. She also said that when the NYT offered her the column, she wondered to herself why anyone would want to read what she thought (although obviously these fleeting doubts didn't deter her!)
In short, IMHO, Maureen's a fraud and I think she on some level she knows it (my turn to play bad armchair psychologist!) She found a home though, at the NYT..a perfect storm of sorts! As the quality of her commentary and writing continues to sink below the level of the average college newspaper, however, I can't for the life of me figure out how she stays there. Must be a sacred cow thing at this point.
Posted by: Cheryl at Apr 23, 2005 1:34:34 PM
Bravo! Magnifico!
Daniel:
Just a couple of days ago you were wringing your hands and wetting yourself about the "mean-spiritedness" of people with whom you disagree. I thought, "He's a new guy. And conservatives can be caustic. Go easy on him." But now you reveal yourself as merely a partisan hack. MoDo writes vicious and plain lies, but they suit your agenda, so you blather about her as a "provocateur" and pay it no mind. You have no actual interest in the truth. You aren't even really concerned about "mean-spiritedness" (cuz MoDo piece is a model of mean-spiritedness). You're basically just full of crap and I will ignore you from now on.
Posted by: Mark Shea at Apr 23, 2005 1:46:06 PM
Amy,
Great exercise in "muscular" Christianity. St. Jerome, who was also skilled in good-natured verbal jousting, would be proud.
Posted by: Fr. Ronald M. Vierling at Apr 23, 2005 1:54:51 PM
A few things ...
Amy clearly has the desire, not to mention the talent, to replace Maureen Dowd in the firmament of Big Journalism. I say that with respect, and not from a sense of snarkiness.
But I also say it from the perspective that I never read what non-church folks have to say about church. If I want Catholicism, I'll read what a Catholic says, if theology, a theologian, if music or art, a musician or artist. By the same token, if I want to get a handle on tradis, I'm not going to read what the libs write about them. And vice versa. This is the media after all, and I do think it's too much to ask that they be intelligent all the time.
And Mark, you've been so coopted by your own bile, you're hardly recognizable at times. Back to the topic, man, back to the topic.
Posted by: Todd at Apr 23, 2005 1:58:17 PM
Ms Welborn:
Such harsh remarks! Uncharitable. Is there a bit of professional jealously here?
"Looking stupid"? Part of the human condition, oftener than we'd like. You did opine that it was obvious Ms Schiavo had not had her day in court. This, of a woman whose lawyers had lived in court the past 7 years,appealing to some 20 different legal fora, I believe. What a flabbergasting statement I found your's to be. Allow Ms Dowd hers.
Posted by: CB at Apr 23, 2005 1:58:29 PM
Todd:
In case you didn't know it, I'm working on a novel right now. Don't dare presume my motivations.
CB:
Perhaps you've not been around this blog long enough?
Posted by: amy at Apr 23, 2005 2:04:49 PM
We should remember that Maureen Dowd is in a deep state of shock at the moment!All her hopes and dreams of the last few years have come to nought this week.She is finding it hard to accept that the Pope really is a Catholic.She also needs to turn in copy for her employers.Hence such a piece as this.
Posted by: Paul at Apr 23, 2005 2:09:33 PM
So, it's come to this: The Battle of the "Not Nice Girls"!!
Splendid response to Ms. Dowd's piece. I don't think "Shut up" is an inappropriate response to someone who has no interest in facts, becoming informed or making thoughtful critiques. Reading her is like interacting with a self-satisfied, know-it-all, precocious teenager. It's infuriating and boring at the same time.
I do wonder what SHE thinks what she has written: does she think it is good or fair? Is she proud of it? Does she ever think that if what she is writing about Benedict XVI isn't completely true, then it is slanderous and she is damaging a good man's reputation and ability to do his very important job? I don't get that kind of reckless indifference to truth. And for what? A few snickers?
Anyway, Amy's response is great. Really, really hope you send it to the NYT or Opinion Journal; hey, you're a network tv commentator now!
Posted by: Anna at Apr 23, 2005 2:35:00 PM
Amy, that "Not Nice Girls" piece is brilliant. I need to print it out for my mother, certainly not a nice girl, from whom I inherited that spirit.
Posted by: Eileen R at Apr 23, 2005 2:46:00 PM
To the poster who wanted to know what was factually incorrect with saying that "our Church was soft on slavery", it took me about 3 seconds to find this (and a couple hundred other) link on Google:
http://www.ewtn.com/library/ISSUES/FREECAPT.TXT
The Church was NEVER soft on slavery. Sinners who disobeyed the Church on this issue were ipso facto EXCOMMUNICATED.
BTW, I have yet to hear the Anglicans apologize for the fact that the first slave-ship from Africa to the New World (in opposition to the decrees of not only the Pope but also King Phillip of Spain) was Queen Elizabeth's HMS Jesus.
Posted by: GFvonB at Apr 23, 2005 3:11:08 PM
Amy,
Just my 1.5 cents: Geez. "Daniel" mentioned Dionne only because you did, no? And, I'm curious, why are fake names any more acceptable than fake e-mail addresses? And: is it okay for Mark to presume motives? I could be wrong, of course, but I did detect, I thought, some motive-assuming in your post on Dionne earlier in the week, which I didn't think was entirely fair. For what it's worth, anyway.
Posted by: Grant Gallicho at Apr 23, 2005 3:21:11 PM
Grant, Daniel brought up a completely different passage of Dionne's that Amy had never commented on and demanded to know why she objected to it.
Posted by: Eileen R at Apr 23, 2005 3:25:30 PM
Grant:
Eileen's got it. It was an attempted thread-hijack. And the email - on an another thread, yesterday, I asked him to write to me privately, that I would keep his email private, but he was posting so frequently and forcefully, bending threads to his own agenda, that I needed a way to communicate with him privately. That's the problem. Someone who jumps on here occasionally, says her peace, and has a fake email is fine. I usually don't even check. But when there's someone starts posting 20-30 times a day...I need to have an email. Did I say, "Dionne is criticizing Ratz because he's jealous of his cool hat?" I don't remember saying that.
Further, it is often true that women who critique other women are frequently told they're just envious. Think. When men critique other men, are they told that?
Posted by: amy at Apr 23, 2005 3:32:35 PM
Amy,
So true. Not to mention the fact that your calling MoDo merely "stupid" WAS being charitable...
Posted by: Cheryl at Apr 23, 2005 3:40:22 PM
To toot my own horn, what passes for Ms. Dowd's Catholic commentary can simply be written by my Papal Critique-O-Matic Web Page.
Posted by: Kevin Jones at Apr 23, 2005 3:48:58 PM
Amy,I just re-read Daniel and Grant's posts. In fairness to them, neither said anything about you being envious of Maureen Dowd.
Posted by: Leslie at Apr 23, 2005 3:56:04 PM
Poor MoDo, really.
And they're not columns, most of 'em. They're hairballs.
Posted by: AH at Apr 23, 2005 4:03:45 PM
I wouldn't posit Ann Coulter as a proper example of a "provocateur." Coulter doesn't do her homework, either. Look at the Daily Howler for a complete compendium. Even Michael Moore is more careful with the facts.
Posted by: RP Burke at Apr 23, 2005 4:22:44 PM
daniel duffy, please don't stop commenting (assuming you aren't banned). i enjoy reading what you have to say.
Posted by: kathleen reilly at Apr 23, 2005 4:24:12 PM
Daniel gave as an excuse in another thread (for not giving a real email) that he didn't want people finding out personal info about him. I don't buy it - get a totally anonymous Yahoo or Hotmail account if you're worried about such things, it takes all of two minutes.
Posted by: Sonetka at Apr 23, 2005 4:37:31 PM
Amy,
Brilliant! I bow down before thee.
Posted by: James Freeman at Apr 23, 2005 4:55:24 PM
An Open Letter to Maureen Dowd:=:-OShut. Up.
Oh, I forgot.
Dear Ms. Dowd:
Shut. Up...
Can I ask you just what the hell is the matter with you?
(Memo to self: if Amy ever gives you a response like this, you've messed up big time.)
I know what NYT will say about the inaccuracies: it's an opinion piece and should be taken as such, not a news item.
For publication of your response, you'd probably have to modify the "shut up"s and the "hell" to something wimpier. Personally, I love it as is. Give 'em heck, Amy!
AH wrote: "And they're not columns, most of 'em. They're hairballs." LOL (and accurate).
Posted by: Jim C. at Apr 23, 2005 5:04:58 PM
Got it. Thanks for the clarification. Twenty to thirty times?! That's, um. A lot. Sorta scary, actually. Sorry for the misunderstanding (although I still think E. J. Dionne deserves more credit).
Posted by: Grant Gallicho at Apr 23, 2005 5:09:20 PM
The Catholic church and slavery, especially slavery in the Americas, is an extremely complicated topic. The church was soft on slavery. There were religious orders in the south, especially New Orleans and Baltimore, that owned slaves. At one point the Jesuits, who founded the first sugar plantation on the island of Martinique, were the second largest slaveowners on the island.
Most importantly, the abolitionist movement was almost entirely a product of Protestantism. Latin America was one of the last regions in the West to give up slavery. Recall that many Confederates moved to Catholic Brazil in order to continue to practice this toxic commerce.
Posted by: denise at Apr 23, 2005 5:29:30 PM
Wow. First time I had ever heard of (much less seen) this blog.
I now think I know all I need to know about it.
"Open Book: where Catholicism means 'Since my narrow ideology has captured the papacy, agree w/ me or Shut.Up.'"
Universal Love of Jesus Christ? Not so much.
Adios!
Posted by: J. C. Fisher at Apr 23, 2005 5:38:39 PM
JC Fisher, I have to agree. If this is the best catholics can do on the internet, then forget the Pope -- I WANT to go back to 1397
Posted by: kathleen reilly at Apr 23, 2005 5:52:46 PM
Mr. Fisher,
On the off chance you do come back-- "be not afraid!" For starters, "narrow ideology" can't capture the papacy. This is just an old-fashioned argument among people of varying skill-- think of acquaintances talking on Amy's wraparound veranda porch (not that she has one, 'cause I wouldn't know, but I like the image). Add a mint julep or two, and a dogeared copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
Catholicism, as the (Chestertonian?) phrase goes, means "here comes everybody." And Amy would be the first to tell you that. Don't be dissing her blog. Some people mess it, some people polish it, but stick around and you'll come to appreciate it. Amy herself is flat-out great.
Posted by: Patrick O'Hannigan at Apr 23, 2005 5:53:14 PM
"Latin America was one of the last regions in the West to give up slavery."
Untrue. Most of Latin America abolished slavery before the U.S. did.
" During the early 19th century, such revolutionaries as Simón Bolívar fought for independence from Spain for the region’s Spanish colonies and endorsed universal freedom. The independent governments they created either weakened slavery or abolished it entirely.
Chile and Mexico in 1823 and the United Provinces of Central America in 1824 abolished slavery as a direct result of their independence movements. Economic and political forces led Uruguay in 1842, Bolivia and Colombia in 1851, Ecuador in 1852, Argentina in 1853, and Peru and Venezuela in 1854 to terminate the institution. When Brazilian troops invaded and occupied Paraguay in the 1860s at the end of the War of the Triple Alliance, the government they established abolished slavery. Since by then the United States had also abolished slavery, this left Brazil as the only independent slaveholding nation in the western hemisphere."
Source:MSN Encarta
Only three states in the Western Hemisphere abolished slavery after the U.S.: Paraguay, Cuba and Brazil.
Posted by: Donald R. McClarey at Apr 23, 2005 6:11:37 PM
J.C.
Sorry to have offended you. Read what I said again. I don't care what she thinks. I care that she spouts non-truths as if they're acknowledged facts. Can you not read? Did I critique her views on the Church, whatever they are? Did I?
Quote me, please. Back up your characterization of my blog. Do it.
Kathleen: No, but two other commentors did, and that's what I was reffering to. Daniel is welcome to comment as long as he writes me. He doesn't have to provide his email to anyone, and can continue posting a fake one, as long as I know how to reach him myhself. He has posted 40 comments since 4/21, often taking the thread in another direction from its original purpose. Sometimes I agree with him, sometimes I don't. The principal is: You want to use my blog to make massive, frequent comment - okay, but let me know who you really are. Or just get your own blog.
Posted by: amy at Apr 23, 2005 6:12:26 PM
"Wow. First time I had ever heard of (much less seen) this blog.
I now think I know all I need to know about it.
"Open Book: where Catholicism means 'Since my narrow ideology has captured the papacy, agree w/ me or Shut.Up.'"
Universal Love of Jesus Christ? Not so much.
Adios!
Posted by: J. C. Fisher at April 23, 2005 05:38 PM"
From the website of the aforementioned J.C. Fisher:
"In reaction to the election of Pope Benedict XVI
. . . all I can say to my Roman Catholic brothers and sisters, is "The Episcopal Church Welcomes You!"
(Yes, I will still pray for Ratzinger: God may yet have more Damascene thunderbolts ;-p)"
Yeah, we can learn a lot about openess and tolerance from Mr. Fisher. I would urge the curious to inspect his site. It is a hoot. It also helps explains why the Episcopal Church in this country is such a blazing success and a model for our Church to follow!
Posted by: Donald R. McClarey at Apr 23, 2005 6:20:52 PM
Postscript: That the Catholic church has been soft on slavery is an assertion in dire need of more than anecdotal evidence. Vincent Carroll and Dave Shiflett's book, "Christianity on Trial" argues otherwise, as does Philip Sampson's "Six Modern Myths."
It is true to say that Protestants like William Wilberforce did much for the antislavery cause. So did the Royal Navy. But they weren't alone in the struggle.
Dominican priest Antonio de Montesinos was preaching sermons against the sins of colonialists in the Americas in 1511. In 1537, Pope Paul III declared that "no Indian should be given into servitude." Many Catholic missionaries to the New World allied themselves with native peoples. The papacy condemned slavery or the slave trade in 1462, 1741, 1815, and 1839.
Posted by: Patrick O'Hannigan at Apr 23, 2005 6:22:17 PM
Your response to the ever-obnoxious and whiny Maureen Dowd is superb. I would certainly love to be a co-signer to any letter that you forward to her.
But if rarely read the New York Times, holding it in the same esteem as I did Pravda during the Soviet era. So, Dowd and Sullivan, the Boston Globe, the Washington Post, ad nauseum, do not often affect me.
I am amazed, however, at those self-described moderate or progressive Catholics who state that they are willing to suspend judgement and to give Pope Benedict a chance.
Exactly who should be suspending judgement and waiting to see who does what? Should not Pope Benedict be looking at his flock and waiting upon them to prove themselves? Is it not the height of presumption to assume that because one has a modicum of faith and a touch of education that he is therefore able to judge the Vicar of Christ as an equal?
Could anyone compare Dionne's opinions to a man who has spent his long life in education, teaching, leading a often rebellious and stiff-necked flock on the road to redemption and salvation? Dionne, McBrien, Greeley, Kung, etc., will be forgotten tombstones while the legacy of this man will span decades and centuries from grateful Christians.
Posted by: John Hetman at Apr 23, 2005 6:25:58 PM
n.b: JCFisher is a woman, not a man.
Posted by: deb at Apr 23, 2005 6:32:19 PM
GF von B: The truth about the church and slavery is a lot more complicated than either side is conceding. I don't have the time to give a full essay on the subject, but in the interests of accuracy, I have to say that there were definitely black slaves in the Spanish colonies before Queen Elizabeth's reign.
Posted by: James Kabala at Apr 23, 2005 6:37:09 PM
I agree with Mr. Kabala, this is a very complicated chapter in history, but I always find it painful to learn that Jesuits, Dominicans, Francisans, and Carmelite orders owned slaves in the Americas.
Catholic countries were the last to get rid of the institution of slavery which is not the same thing as saying that all Catholic countries retained this institution after its abolition in all Protestant countries. I quote the Spanish legislator, Emilio Castelar, who gave this speech in 1870, "I will say that we have had nineteen centuries of Christianity, and still there are slaves. They only exist in the Catholic countries of Brazil and Spain. . . . Nineteen centuries of Christianity, and there are still slaves among Catholic peoples!"
Posted by: denise at Apr 23, 2005 6:55:47 PM
Amy, I'd keep in mind the following quotation:
Never try to reason the prejudice out of a man. It wasn't reasoned into him, and cannot be reasoned out. - Sydney Smith
I.e., I don't see how anything you write to Dowd will do anything but feed her sense of accomplishment. And nothing gladdens a progressive's heart like sweet words of contempt from those they see as benighted right-wingers. That being said, my heartfelt congratulations to anyone still willing to slough through one of her columns. That bespeaks a kind of endurance I lost long ago.
Posted by: HA at Apr 23, 2005 6:56:59 PM
It was my understanding that the Vatican, after appeals from the likes of Bartolome de Las Casas, pretty early on started threatening slave traders with excommunication.
I just found this article on slavery and Catholicism from Christianity Today:
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2003/128/53.0.html
Posted by: HA at Apr 23, 2005 7:03:38 PM
Re: Church and slavery,
Anybody know much about pre-Renaissance efforts to abolish slavery? Chesterbelloc paints a picture of free and happy peasants toiling their own farms, a portrait that is doubtlessly quite romanticized.
However, Queen St. Bathilde did abolish slavery in seventh century France, and Tina Nunnally writes in her introductions to Undset's Kristin Lavrandsdatter that emancipation of one's slaves was a condition for baptism during the conversion of Norway in the 10th-11th centuries.
Posted by: Kevin Jones at Apr 23, 2005 7:10:19 PM
"I will say that we have had nineteen centuries of Christianity, and still there are slaves. They only exist in the Catholic countries of Brazil and Spain. . . . Nineteen centuries of Christianity, and there are still slaves among Catholic peoples!"
Of course it was only in Christian countries that the idea of the abolition of slavery developed. For the rest of the world slavery was very much the norm, especially in Islamic states. The crusade against slavery was very much a Christian movement, and often deeply resented by indigenous populations that owned slaves. The totalitarian states of the 20th century did their best to reintroduce slavery on a mass industrial scale. If the light of Christ were to die out in the world, I have no doubt that slavery would return and flourish, although it would do so under another name for a bit.
Posted by: Donald R. McClarey at Apr 23, 2005 7:43:34 PM
The relationship of the Church in wake of the expansion of the African chattel slave trade (from the Arabs) by Portugal and then Spain in the 14th century is complex.
Portugal in particular had a long, sad record in this regard, continuing through the 18th century (the era of "The Mission" conflict and the Suppression of the Jesuits) and evidenced in Brasil's tardy ban on slavery.
There were Papal condemnations of the enslavement of New World Indians early on, but Africans, having long been the objects of enslavement by Arabs, Egyptians, and Romans, were treated somewhat differently. One model was what happened to the Guanches, the possibly Caucasian aborigines of the Canary Islands (the Azores, by contrast, were uninhabited).
Furthermore, what Rome said and whether it put muscle behind enforcement are VERY different questions and the answer to the latter does not shed glory on the Church.
Some Spanish friars in the 1500s at least had the distinction of first championing the issue of what we might call international human rights.
Once Spain's power started to decline in the next century, it became more valuable for other powers (both political and financial -- England, Holland, Genoese bankers, et cet.) as a carcass to be fed off of slowly rather than to consume quickly.
After the War of the Spanish Succession, England's real prize was the control of the cross-Atlantic slave trade, and England perfected it and profited beyond imagining.
It's mostly nasty, and few are covered in glory. Apologists for the Church have to pick through a great deal of mud to find the gems worth celebrating.
Posted by: Liam at Apr 23, 2005 8:08:54 PM
Correction: I should have written 15th century in the first sentence above.
Posted by: Liam at Apr 23, 2005 8:09:24 PM
Amy. I definitely agree with your reaction to Maureen Dowd's column. As a matter of fact, I just read the column and immediately flipped over here to see the reaction. It's hard to know what's more insulting: her characterization of the Pope as a sinister eminence grise lurking behind JPII's throne, the tired old "God's Rottweiler" BS, or the "enforcer" crap --- all I've read ad nauseam ever since the poor man was elected. Talk about character assassination -- ridiculous! Thank you for your words and your own clearly stated, intelligent, well-researched views. I'm not a conservative generally (somewhat left of centre), but I am a Catholic, and it really gets my goat when someone starts using a public forum such as the NYT to defame the Pope, who so far has impressed me a great deal with his words and general demeanour. When one sees the same pejorative terms repeated in various articles/columns over and over again, one realizes that there's a journalistic template in use which doesn't require any thought or viewpoint re-assessment on the part of the columnist. As you point out, God forbid they should do their homework on BXVI -- just trot out the usual garbage, fill in the blanks, and bingo, there's your column! I've been reading a great deal about the Pope since he was elected, and the more I read, the more I like him. Maureen Dowd should follow your suggestions and do the same thing. IMO, this is perhaps the worst of her columns I've ever read -- and I applaud you for taking her to task on her darn near libellous sloppy rubbish. Bravo, Amy!
Posted by: Pat Gonzalez at Apr 23, 2005 8:33:35 PM
Cliff May at NRO had a similar reaction:
Maureen Dowd must be on vacation. What appears to be a Maureen Dowd column this morning is surely a parody of a Maureen Dowd column. I mean, she wouldn’t write anything this ridiculous. And if she did, her editors would never publish it. ...
Pope Benedict XVI and Vice President Cheney “are a match,” the satirist continues, “absolutists who view the world in stark terms of good and evil, eager to prolong a patriarchal society that prohibits gay marriage and slices up pro-choice U.S. Democratic candidates.” Is that hysterical, or what? Even Maureen wouldn’t be so clueless as to chide a pope for seeing the world in terms of “good and evil.” ...
This is a scream! But when Maureen comes back from vacation and sees it, I think she’s going to be angry.
Posted by: Christopher Rake at Apr 23, 2005 8:50:21 PM
Amy. Gloves off, tables flying (don't make her mad). Wait, I'm damn glad she is mad. I wish I could write like that. You go girl!
Posted by: Joseph R. Wilson at Apr 23, 2005 8:51:58 PM
I did not need to read your detailed and excellent comments to agree with you. Dowd is doing the same thing to Catholicism that she has done to the Republican party, Bush and Cheney in particular. She is so over-the-top offensive. Being a cute young girl is no longer a defense for her. She has got to be the most uninformed (judging by her columns) and immature columnist out there. That's saying a lot!
Her columns are about 70% lies, 20% innuendo and 10% character assassination via other means not included in the previous 2 categories.
Posted by: Peggy at Apr 23, 2005 8:56:27 PM
Thank you, Amy! You expressed clearly and forcefully what many of us want to say, but are unable to. And, who knows, it may be just the jolt that Ms. Dowd needs to reflect on how she is using (or misusing) her gifts.
Posted by: Fr Phil Bloom at Apr 23, 2005 9:00:08 PM
Fr. Bloom:
One would hope so, but I worked with journalists for 15 years. Call me Eeyore.
Posted by: Chris at Apr 23, 2005 9:20:04 PM
Ever since Michael Douglas dumped her for Catherine Zeta Jones, old Mo has come completely unhinged.
Posted by: Duane at Apr 23, 2005 9:27:00 PM
Do you think Maureen worries half as much about you as you worry about her? If not, then you've wasted a lot of productive energy on someone who isn't going to change. People of vastly different ideologies will often not see eye to eye, and even less often be able to change eachother.
Posted by: pw at Apr 23, 2005 10:10:37 PM
Dear Kathleen and JCFisher,
Let me reiterate what some others have said:
1) This is Amy Welborn's blog. The 1st Amendment doesn't enter into it, any more than it does on your blog. People post here as guests of the owner. If they don't like this arrangement, they have the liberty to go elsewhere. That is how the blogosphere works. I feel sure that at some level, you know this.
2) The idea that Amy is shutting down discourse she does not agree with across the board is utterly at variance with the facts, as you would know if you had spent any time here. There is a vast diversity of opinion in the postings. Probably more diverse and spirited than any other Catholic blog I know of. It takes extraordniary misbehavior to draw the wrath of Mistress Amy. "Daniel" did just that by hijacking threads and refusing to make himself accessible by private e-mail.
3) There are principled critiques to be made of the Pope Benedict view of the Church. Maureen Dowd is unfortunately incapable at this time of writing one. If you feel the need to offer such a critique, history suggests it will always be welcome here. Jumping to the defense of inane columns like Dowd's here isn't helping your cause in that respect.
Posted by: Richard at Apr 23, 2005 10:25:19 PM
Hello pw,
As with all fellow men, I presume we worry about her soul.
But as for her opinions I suspect most here have assumed my posture or or rapidly moving that way. I have given up reading her. She has become unsatirizable.
A shame, since she is clearly a writer with some talent.
Amy no doubt saw this new low for MoDo as a "teaching moment."
Posted by: Richard at Apr 23, 2005 10:27:19 PM
Um, pw..."open letter" = "Joke" or "literary device" (if you want to call what I did "literary").
Posted by: deb at Apr 23, 2005 10:34:07 PM
Richard: I honestly don't know what the heck you are talking about. "The First amendment doesn't enter into it" ...whaaat? I did not post about constitutional law...I don't care about policies of this blog (and I never posted about them, so again, do not know what you are talking about). nor did i "jump to the defense" of Maureen Dowd (I agree with the apparently infamous and dangerous daniel that she is merely a provacateur). I DO care, however, that a bunch of (self-proclaimed, anyway) orthodox catholics are publicly revelling in bitterness, envy, gossip, and just plain nastiness. it is, how do you say .... disgusting.
Posted by: kathleen reilly at Apr 23, 2005 11:13:47 PM
So, I guess about now you're settling in with the whole "life is unfair" thing. You're a faithful Catholic and an accomplished writer. She's a dimwit whose prose barely transcends the skill of most college newspaper writers. But being a Catholic anti-Catholic she's secure in the upper tier of journalism that is closed to faithful Christians.
Still, she and her fellow travellers are losing the culture war each and every day. The New York Times and the other major media outlets aren't held in the kind of esteem they were in the '70s and '80s. And you stand a pretty good chance in conjunction with other blogs of reaching nearly as large an audience--or at least one large enough to have an impact.
It's just to bad that fighting the good fight doesn't come with the pay and prestige of a NYT columnist. Well, the pay's better, it's just a deferred paycheck.
Posted by: WF at Apr 23, 2005 11:16:15 PM
Seriously, who is influenced by Maureen Dowd? Don't you think she just confirms those who email her columns in their prejudices? But EJ Dione does have some influence, I suspect, and it has been amply demonstrated here that he is using his column - deliberately or from laziness - to spread falsehoods that hurt the Church.
Posted by: Ed at Apr 23, 2005 11:22:19 PM
Amy,
I THANK YOU for this blog. I am continually amazed at your ability to do this for *us* and also to allow such mean-spirited people to comment in your space.
I smell a skunk = when people accuse you of mean spiritedness! If they want mean-spirited people they can meet me ;-) I am not half as civil as you. BUT guess what - Catholics (Kennedy, Dowd and such) believe in killing innocent babies - partially aborting fully mature babies even, extra-marital affairs, an anything goes life style of IF IT feels good and you can pay your way out of something...DO IT...and on and on -
God forbid you tell MODO to shut-up (which I have been thinking for years!) and you are called a bad *orthodox* catholic!
What is disgusting(!) is guests to YOUR blog harrassing you or people whom agree with your OPINION about MODO - a consumate LIAR. There is discourse and then there is the liberal way of playing a *game* that I just do not understand nor do I care too.
I believe some come here only to judge others' - not to contribute, not to learn. Just to fight and find the splinter in anothers' eye while ignoring the plank in their own. It's alright to be an orthodox catholic and tell someone to shut up -- I really think Jesus told people (in his way) to shut up (or he just got on his boat and rowed out to the middle of the lake...)
Posted by: biz at Apr 24, 2005 12:14:12 AM
Thanks, but let me hasten to add one more time that I don't take issue w/MoDo's views here (although I could), but with her slapdash column-writing which evidently involves no necessary links to reality, and does involve lots of misstatements and no awareness of real news.
Posted by: amy at Apr 24, 2005 12:18:33 AM
And no, no one reads MoDo to be informed. If they read her, they do so to be entertained. But the soundbytes stick.
Posted by: amy at Apr 24, 2005 12:19:15 AM
Denise writes that the Catholic Church was soft on slavery and cites examples of religious orders who owned slaves. I find not much difference between that and modern religious orders who support abortion and pro-abortion view-points. The Church could not be more explicit regarding the wrongness of abortion; the problem is, that contrary to the misguided beliefs of the Maureen Dowd's of the World, the Church doesn't weild the oppressive power that can stop people from not doing the right thing. So in the 1800's Catholics owned slaves because they ignored Rome who didn't know what it was talking about. Now at the dawn of the Third Millenium there are folks who ignore Rome on abortion, contraception, and a host of other things because Rome doesn't know what it is talking about. The conclusion we are to draw is not that the Church is "tolerant" of this dissent but rather that it is oppressive and ruthless excommunicating and shutting up everyone who disagrees or dissent.
The Church's ruthless oppression totally explains why MoDo is still part of the Church along with all the other folks who join her in open dissent and malicious lies. Truth be known, if she were made the first Grand Popess , she wouldn't have time to do anything but sign excommunications. But she is snickering all the way to the bank...so maybe she isn't that dumb..
Posted by: Therese at Apr 24, 2005 2:38:52 AM
Kathleen,
I DO care, however, that a bunch of (self-proclaimed, anyway) orthodox catholics are publicly revelling in bitterness, envy, gossip, and just plain nastiness. it is, how do you say .... disgusting.
I have no idea what you are talking about.
No doubt there are people out there engaging in unChristian behavior or sentiment.
I do not think Amy is one of them - if in fact that is what you are suggesting.
Posted by: Richard at Apr 24, 2005 3:02:44 AM
Maureen D. took Benedict's interest in patristics as an inclination to roll back to the dark ages -- weird! -- just as Cheney she thinks would roll back the New Deal.
Benedict's beautiful homily this morning shows that he see the Fathers as speaking to us about our situation today. In explaining the sign of the fisherman's ring, he recalled the arresting commentary of the Fathers on the passage about the task of fishing for men: Fish are made to live in water and to be taken from it is fatal to them. Men though live in alienation and suffering and to be pulled into Christ's net is to be taken from the waters of death into God's light.
I've pasted in the whole passage below. It is about how men and women have always lived, in the early centuries and now. Benedict has a great literary gift. If the people who are so hostile to Benedict would actually read what he is saying and has written, as Amy urged, they would find something to respond to here. Maureen might even like the way that the Fathers in the fish/men analogy used the same literary effect that she is so fond of -- the reverse comparison (I'm sure there's a proper name for the device)under which 1937 is revealed as 1397 (or whatever). My prayer today is for wider reading of Benedict's writing.
Today too the Church and the successors of the Apostles are told to put out into the deep sea of history and to let down the nets, so as to win men and women over to the Gospel – to God, to Christ, to true life. The Fathers made a very significant commentary on this singular task. This is what they say: for a fish, created for water, it is fatal to be taken out of the sea, to be removed from its vital element to serve as human food. But in the mission of a fisher of men, the reverse is true. We are living in alienation, in the salt waters of suffering and death; in a sea of darkness without light. The net of the Gospel pulls us out of the waters of death and brings us into the splendour of God’s light, into true life. It is really true: as we follow Christ in this mission to be fishers of men, we must bring men and women out of the sea that is salted with so many forms of alienation and onto the land of life, into the light of God. It is really so: the purpose of our lives is to reveal God to men. And only where God is seen does life truly begin. Only when we meet the living God in Christ do we know what life is. We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary. There is nothing more beautiful than to be surprised by the Gospel, by the encounter with Christ. There is nothing more beautiful than to know Him and to speak to others of our friendship with Him. The task of the shepherd, the task of the fisher of men, can often seem wearisome. But it is beautiful and wonderful, because it is truly a service to joy, to God’s joy which longs to break into the world.
Posted by: James Englert at Apr 24, 2005 7:53:51 AM
"Is it now OK for even an opinion writer to make up facts out of thin air?"
I think she may be a reflection on the larger society. Talk to the people in the cubicles or even in your own family and social circle.
It's just sad that she makes up stuff and feeds it to millions? too lazy or too willing to believe the worst of others because it's easier to do that than to actually discipline yourself to fact find and then think it out.
I always knew who Maureen Dowd was in print but I had no idea what she looked like. One morning not too long ago I saw her on a talking head show on cable, and I listened to her and thought "who is this angry and bitter woman?" Words of bile and a miserable face - look in her eyes, she's like a cornered animal, fear and anger mixed in. It became obvious after a bit when the show emcee used her name. I guess it clicked and I honestly felt sorry for her.
Posted by: Colleen at Apr 24, 2005 8:21:42 AM
" "who is this angry and bitter woman?" Words of bile and a miserable face - look in her eyes, she's like a cornered animal, fear and anger mixed in. It became obvious after a bit when the show emcee used her name. I guess it clicked and I honestly felt sorry for her."--Colleen
“Whosoever you would change, you must first love, and they must know that you love them.”--Dr. Martin Luther King
“One of the basic characteristics of a shepherd must be to love the people entrusted to him, even as he loves Christ whom he serves. "Feed my sheep", says Christ to Peter, and now, at this moment, he says it to me as well. Feeding means loving, and loving also means being ready to suffer.
Loving means giving the sheep what is truly good, the nourishment of God's truth, of God's word, the nourishment of his presence, which he gives us in the Blessed Sacrament.
My dear friends -- at this moment I can only say: pray for me, that I may learn to love the Lord more and more.
Pray for me, that I may learn to love his flock more and more -- in other words, you, the holy Church, each one of you and all of you together. Pray for me, that I may not flee for fear of the wolves. Let us pray for one another, that the Lord will carry us and that we will learn to carry one another.”--Pope Benedict XVI, Installation Mass, 24 April 2005
I plan to pray at Mass today especially for Maureen Dowd and all of the flock who vociferously calumniate against our humble Holy Father. And thanks to Amy for drawing our attention to Ms. Dowd’s unhappy state.
Posted by: Joseph R. Wilson at Apr 24, 2005 9:26:52 AM
dowd's not liberal so much as snotty.
Posted by: maura at Apr 24, 2005 9:31:41 AM
maura -
I agree. I don't think she has much of an ideology.
Posted by: amy at Apr 24, 2005 9:56:33 AM
(I mean, she's more liberal than conservative and insofar as she's Catholic she's very obviously cafeteria rather than orthodox. But if she identified with liberals or Democrats or any community however flawed, well then she couldn't be superior to them.
I am all for satire. I really enjoyed the Simpsons B.C.E. ("before crappy era") & really enjoy the Daily Show today. But real satire is more than a collection of snide, facile one liners & cutesy superficial comparisons.
It really irritates me that she's the most prominent female Op-Ed writer in America. I'm sure Dowd votes more like I do, but give me Amy or Anne Applebaum over her any day of the week.)
Posted by: maura at Apr 24, 2005 10:07:18 AM
Joseph, yes, an excellent reminder.
I don't think she has much of an ideology either, I see an unhappy human being treading water and grabbing onto whatever keeps her flailing and afloat in the world she lives in.
Posted by: Colleen at Apr 24, 2005 10:38:33 AM
I like Maureen Dowd because I find her acerbic writing humorous. I never read her column as in any way literally accurate. Her purpose is to be inflammatory and to get people all riled up, which she obviously has succeeded in doing here. I'm sure she herself doesn't believe Benedict really wants to undo Vatican II. I think her point is just to emphasize that she sees Benedict as being a traditionalist, ultra-orthodox Catholic. Her way of expressing this point of view is to say things like "Benedict wants to dismantle Vatican II and go back to 1397." Her columns are certainly worthy of criticism; but it is unseemly of you, Amy, to stoop to such fits of uncharacteristic ill-humor just because Dowd is being Dowd.
But there is something that bothers me a bit about your rather violent outburst against Dowd. It is that I never see such anger expressed against Conservative Catholic editorialists, like Cal Thomas or Michael Novak, who sometimes express an equally exaggerated, polemical, and sometimes incorrect understanding of faith and Catholic Church leadership with the purpose of having a similar emotional effect upon their readers. With folks like these, your reaction tends to fall out along the lines of gentle retribution, careful pastoral sensitivity, loving castigation, etc. Why is that? Why wouldn't you castigate such conservative "provocateurs" in such equally harsh manner?
Perhaps I could be wrong, but I would venture to say that you have probably never told a conservative Catholic editorialists who mocks the faith of liberal catholics to "shut up."
But outside of the political/ideological dimension that I glimpse at work in your uncharacteristically vicious reply, I would also have to say how disappointing it is to me (1) that you have ceased being very Christian in the manner of your response, and (2) also how some others in this comment thread have so deliciously lapped up the real un-Christian bitterness, meanness, and dagger-driving aggressiveness so evident in your reply.
Posted by: Jimmy Huck at Apr 24, 2005 11:03:38 AM
Jimmy, I wouldn't pin the free pass for "good" Catholics on Amy. When Deal Hudson fell from grace there were some St Bloggers who nailed him hard, and some who were silent, and some who defended him. William Donohue blundered badly in the latter category, but his links and excerpts are still posted.
I think Dowd's output over a long time rankles many, and her superiors, like Coulter, Limbaugh, Franken, and other media figures know it raises revenue. Amy's sound clip was a perfect example for this with Pat Buchanan. Everything in TPOTC was in the Gospel? Not true, but I can appreciate Buchanan's point without getting hung up on his untruth.
It's hard to take journalists like this seriously. So I don't. The mainstream media has little clue about the real issues of debate in Catholicism, so I'm not too interested in what they have to say.
I think the bile and aggressiveness in the St Blog's reaction doesn't reflect well on us. You can be dead right, but communicate it in a completely wrong way.
Posted by: Todd at Apr 24, 2005 11:34:28 AM
Amy,
I guess there is little point in responding to the Jimmy Hucks here who see "viciousness", "castigation", "violent outburst" and (this takes the cake) "un-Christian bitterness, meanness, and dagger-driving aggressiveness" where there was none; obviously, the fact that one can compare your essay to how they wrongly characterize it doesn't bother them at all. They are very much like Dowd in that way.
Amy, you will be doing a great service if you always post Benedict XVI's complete remarks somewhere on your blog (maybe in a special place, as you've given to "blogs of obligation")so we can always read for ourselves what the MSM won't be printing but will be mischaracterizing.
Posted by: Dudley at Apr 24, 2005 11:40:26 AM
I think "1397" just came from switching the middle two digits of "1937". That does leave unanswered the question: "Why 1937?"
Posted by: Geoff at Apr 24, 2005 11:42:42 AM
>>"Perhaps I could be wrong, but I would venture to say that you have probably never told a conservative Catholic editorialists who mocks the faith of liberal catholics to "shut up."<<
She's not mocking 'liberal' or 'conservative' Catholics, she's mocking all Catholics when she mocks the Catholic Church, turning it and the Holy Father into a lapdog for political ideology.
I just hate to see stupidity... I wonder if Ms. Dowd has actually met with or has read anything the man she is mocking has written or has said?
Posted by: Colleen at Apr 24, 2005 11:46:12 AM
Sorry if I offended anyone by the outrageous display of "un-Christian bitterness, meanness, and dagger-driving aggressiveness" in any of my posts. ;-)
Posted by: Colleen at Apr 24, 2005 11:48:59 AM
Geoff asked: "why 1937?"
My guess is that 1937, followed by 1397, just sounded best in the sentence and was "close enough" chronologically, in a slapdash kind of way. A more correct year, if you wanted to imply pre-New Deal, would be 1932.
I could be wrong, though. Maybe she did have something definite in mind but I can't think what it would be.
Posted by: Kathie at Apr 24, 2005 12:35:48 PM
Dudley - did we read the same "open letter"? Regardless of what you think of Dowd, I wouldn't exactly call Amy's posting one of Christian charity. Question: how would you characterize it? Loving? Gentle? Forgiving?
Amy's response (and I love the mocking dig at "Blue State" values - it belies the ideological undercurrent of her dislike of Dowd) wasn't very nice - especially coming from someone whose blog, Master's Degree in religion, and slew of books, would seem to indicate that she's above playing the same kind of attack-games.
I mean, even some of Amy's cheerleaders on this comment board, salivating over the prospect of a gloves-off catfight, recognize the aggressive, fighting tone of her open letter.
Whether justified at some primordial human level of defensiveness or not, Amy's open letter was still a mean, angry little rant. It just surprised me as something uncaracteristic of anything else I have seen posted on this blog in my short time visiting here. (There's even the not-so-subtle hint at vulgarity -- "Do you have a clue, or is that just a suitably medieval date you pulled out of your - hat?")
Amy's anti-Dowd posting was disappointing, not for its critique of Dowd (God knows Dowd deserves some criticism), but for its uncharitable, confrontational, aggressive, and mean tone.
Posted by: Jimmy Huck at Apr 24, 2005 12:54:42 PM
Amy, I tremble at the reaction that will ensue if you ever write a truly nasty open letter to someone.
Posted by: Donald R. McClarey at Apr 24, 2005 1:24:21 PM
I was going to post about Miss Dowd's crusade against the Catholic Church, but I guess it's now been done. I do not understand how anybody could find her entertaining on any subject, merely shrill--and, as other commentators have pointed out, predictable. As for the slavery issue, as "Liam" has pointed out, it is complex. The relations among the historical players are complex, as he points out. Even more, any serious historian must also take into account the complex cultural and intellectual context, for example, the distinction, which means little to modern thinking but was very important at the time, between owning slaves and enslavement. It is easy to condemn some past culture for not accepting the standards of one's own; it is harder to understand the contemporary function of that culture's standards and hardest of all to examine critically the standards of the culture in which one lives. I am not defending slavery, especially not the form that it assumed in the Western Hemisphere in the early modern period. My only intention is to point out the difficulty of understanding the mentality of well-meaning people--Catholics and Protestants, monarchists and Masons--who considered it tolerable. I contend that their toleration was not a reflection of either wickedness or stupidity, but of a different view of the world, one which perhaps did not fully understand the reality of social conditions, but which made sense within its own frame of reference.
Posted by: Henry Dieterich at Apr 24, 2005 1:29:20 PM
" I wouldn't exactly call Amy's posting one of Christian charity. Question: how would you characterize it? Loving? Gentle? Forgiving?"--Jimmy Huck
Mr. Huck, I think that it was a little earthy of Amy to unleash as she did, but this is communication between two Catholic women. It seems vulgar and uncharitable of you to characterize it is a "catfight".
Sometimes, in our popular culture, I think that we confuse “gentle” and “nice” with “loving”. It seems that Amy's letter, with fraternal correction followed by an offer of assistance, was indeed loving.
Some of the spiritual works of mercy include: to instruct the ignorant; to counsel the doubtful; and to admonish sinners. When someone risks widespread scandal by publicly acting in such a reckless way, as did Ms. Dowd, she deserves the Christian charity of fraternal correction. No?
Posted by: Joseph R. Wilson at Apr 24, 2005 1:37:11 PM
1397 was in the middle of the Western Schism, perhaps the one time the Church was in a greater state of confusion than it is now.
Posted by: Henry Dieterich at Apr 24, 2005 1:38:48 PM
RE: Mr. Huck...A Reading from the Holy Gospel according to Mark (11:15-17):
--They came to Jerusalem, and on entering the temple area he began to drive out those selling and buying there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who were selling doves. He did not permit anyone to carry anything through the temple area. Then he TAUGHT them saying, "Is it not written: 'My House shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples? But you have turned it into a den of thieves.'"--
Ouch. Sounds like our Lord had a rather uncharitable, confrontational, aggressive, and mean tone. I guess the Son of God deserves 50 lashes with a wet noodle for not being "nice". Sometimes real love and charity call for a firm stand. Yes, Christ went to the cross, but he knocked a few tables over on the way and He absolutely would not stand for His Father's house being used for unseemly gain.
Well, newsflash: The Catholic Church is the Father's house. Shouldn't we be consumed with zeal for it? Why should we gently stand by while it as maligned, misrepresented, torn down BY ITS VERY MEMBERS?? Amy has demonstrated remarkable restraint in the face of truckloads of journalistic tripe out there. I think a proverbial "Wait a damned minute..." is sorely overdue.
Charitably,
Phil
Posted by: Phillip at Apr 24, 2005 1:57:07 PM
Good letter, Amy!
It's funny to read some of the posts from people defending MD. Like petulant children.
Posted by: Poppi at Apr 24, 2005 2:02:19 PM
People: if we're displeased at Ms Dowd's writing, and if we think that this is an example of extremely poor, unbalanced and bigoted journalism, then please, please, send your comments to the New York Times' "Public Editor" (readers' advocate or ombudsman): public@nytimes.com .
Posted by: BoB Kovacs at Apr 24, 2005 2:06:48 PM
Amy, someone, anyone out there: the breaks need to be put on the E. J. Dionne slander:
"But EJ Dione does have some influence, I suspect, and it has been amply demonstrated here that he is using his column - deliberately or from laziness - to spread falsehoods that hurt the Church."
This is a calumny, and it doesn't deserve airing. This is the kind of thing Kathleen is talking about, and folks, she has a point.
Posted by: Grant Gallicho at Apr 24, 2005 2:45:23 PM
Grant,
You evidently haven't carefully read this thread. Someone quoted EJ Dione. In the passage, he faults the Church falsely. Numerous posts have shown that he was incorrect. This is not calumny. Please go censor discussion somewhere else.
Posted by: Trend at Apr 24, 2005 3:18:33 PM
Though most of her family is now "conservative", Dowd got her start in writing for the media through family connections, as her father was head of the U.S. Congress police force.
I guess her being a "woman" also helped further her career, affirmative "action" and all...
Posted by: Mark R at Apr 24, 2005 3:42:56 PM
I have no problem with Amy's frustration over someone who can't even properly research her subjects, but it still is really rude to tell someone to "Shut up." Amy, would you say this to her face? Do you permit your children to say this to one another?
Posted by: symdd at Apr 24, 2005 4:21:15 PM
"Trend" (is that your name?):
Numerous opinions on Dionne's analysis have been rendered. Nothing has been proved. I've read more Dionne than you'd ever care to. It is a calumny to say that Dionne spreads falsehoods that hurt the church. And it's intellectually facile to lump him in with Dowd. And I'm tired of seeing him misrepresented here. He's not that easily pidgeonholed. But nuanced positions don't really have a home in the blogosphere. You have an interesting understanding of the word censor. I can't edit this site.
Posted by: Grant Gallicho at Apr 24, 2005 4:24:32 PM
Jimmy Huck, could you back up your criticism with something a little more substantive? Otherwise, it's just a whine. Find a comparably asinine quote by a conservative in some equally prominent media outlet, bring it to Amy's attention, and see if she ignores it. *Then* criticize.
Just a thought.
Posted by: HA at Apr 24, 2005 4:56:37 PM
Grant,
Starting with Stuart W at 11.10: you can't argue with the facts.
Dione's assertions, themselves, were not nuanced. They speak for themselves. They are false. Therefore it would be accurate to notice that "Dionne spreads falsehoods that hurt the church." Whether through sloppiness, laziness or other motive.
Do you read his private journals? How would you have any idea how much published Dione has been read by anyone here?
As for the word "censor" it was you who appealed to Amy to "put the breaks" (perhaps you meant "brakes"?) on the thread.
Posted by: Trend at Apr 24, 2005 6:01:11 PM
It’s enjoyable to read some sarcastic writing once in a while.
When you and The Anchoress vent your anger, your writing sparkles.
Posted by: Oengus Moonbones at Apr 24, 2005 6:19:08 PM
Dang, I thought this would have died since last I visited. You probably dont need any more reassurance than you have recieved already, but I do hope you sent the letter. It is past time that the NYT addresses the quality of Dowd's columns. I dont know if she is as nutty as she sounds now or has just gotten lazy. At one time I thought she was evil, but have since decided that Nick Damos' quote, "Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by stupidity" applies.
Your letter was not at all over the top considering the shoddiness of her column. And how in the heck did this turn into a defense of EJ Dionne thread?
Posted by: Paul Gross at Apr 24, 2005 9:23:03 PM
Sometimes "shut up" is the only appropriate response. Amy just turned over the tables of the money changers. Thanks Amy - I hope your post, without edit, makes a few major newspapers.
Posted by: cathy at Apr 24, 2005 10:25:49 PM
Never been a big fan of sarcasm. It's too easy and ofen reveals vunerability.
How about some hyperbole? Love that hyperbole!
Posted by: Xavier at Apr 24, 2005 11:47:48 PM
Paul: The same way it turned into a discussion of slavery thread.
"Trend": is that your birth name? Huh. Yes, definitely going to have to get my homophone typos in check before posting. You should be an editor. So, here is what Stuart wrote:
"EJ Dione and daniel duffy:
"'Those who say that change in the Church is simply capitulation to a flawed culture must ex






