« Working for Women | Main | More Sin »
June 21, 2005
Are you a Papist?
HATE SPEECH? [John Derbyshire]
A reader has chid me for using the term "Papist" in a private exchange, to refer to Roman Catholics (of which he is one).
Is this unacceptable? I am always way behind the curve on this stuff. I caused a stunned silence in company a few years ago by using the word "Jewess" in all innocence. (One of the stunnees, a Jewish lady, explained to me afterwards: "I can use that word, but you can't." I have stopped using it.)
I mean "Papist" light-heartedly, as ought to be clear from the fact that I refer to persons of my own persuasion as "Prods." There is, however and alas, not much light-heartedness in the area of self-identification nowadays, and for all I know I may be causing people to gasp, sputter, and swoon. Let me know, please.
Ramesh doesn't mind. I do, especially when it comes from an Anglican Brit (even one who calls himself a "Prod" [and...btw...I always thought that Anglicans virulently reject placing themselves in the "Protestant" category...but I suppose there are different levels of that, as well] - any Catholic ethnic identity I have is all French-Canadian, and it's implanted a knee-jerk reaction to what the Johnny Bulls (as my mother said they used to call the Anglo-Saxon Protestants in Maine) have to say about me.
Posted by Amy Welborn | Permalink
Comments
Call me a mackerel snapper and I'll punch ye in yer nose. ;)
Posted by: David at Jun 21, 2005 3:46:13 PM
Working here in the South, when asked about my religious affiliation, I sometimes reply that I am a "Papist Idolator". It usually produces a look of consternation or pained amusement. I have occasionally thought that, perhaps, I should just say that I belong to one of the two unreformed churches.
Posted by: Ed at Jun 21, 2005 3:49:22 PM
Papist? "Way behind the curve"? I'll say. But then the Corner truly is a sanctuary for "know nothings".
Posted by: ajb at Jun 21, 2005 3:58:18 PM
See, I use the word "Papist" along with "Popery," "Romanism" and "mackerel-snapper" all the time. I just think they're funny. And when living in Texas and Georgia, like Ed, I would sometimes use terms like "statue-worshipper" and "Church of Mary" to Proddy-dogs who asked me what church I went to. And it got the exact look he describes -- a mixture of pained amusement.
Posted by: Victor Morton at Jun 21, 2005 4:04:42 PM
You MIND? You DO? Why on earth? The badge of distinction of the Roman Catholic Church is that we recognize that the Petrine Authority lives and continues in the line of the Bishops of Rome.
We are Papists, Papists, Papists; we are, indeed. "Christian" also originated as a term of abuse. So what? We are Christians, too! And we acknowledge the jurisdicition of the Pope, we are his flock. We are Papists, doggone it!
Posted by: Jeff at Jun 21, 2005 4:05:02 PM
I had a 60-something Episcopalian "Starbucks" buddy I would chat with on occasion, he'd chuckle and call me a Papist. The only argument we ever got into is when I tried to explain that Christ really meant it when he said it was wrong to lust after and ogle pretty woman as they passed by, which by the way, was this older gentlemans main pursuit at Starbucks.
But no, I never took 'papist' as a bigoted comment.
Posted by: Andrew at Jun 21, 2005 4:09:21 PM
I thought this prior term of opprobrium had been adopted by consciously orthodox and faithful RC's and taken for our own. There is a website called "Pertinaceous Papist" for instance.
There are few left who could without irony use this term as an insult or derogatory term; a few fundamentalist/evangelical types still believe the Pope is the anti-Christ, but they tend to call us just Catholics or Roman Catholics.
Papist is a term which has outlived its history; its origins are in the late 16th century, it lived throught the 16th, the 17th, and the 18th century, and still had emotional force in the 19th...but I think by the 20th few could use it unselfconsciously any more. By now I think it is mostly a joke as an insult and has its best use as an affirmation.
Go ahead, call me a Papist.
Susan Peterson
Posted by: Susan Peterson at Jun 21, 2005 4:11:04 PM
I consider myself a papist and am proud of it, even though I romanticize old England and was born there.
Posted by: Ian at Jun 21, 2005 4:12:03 PM
Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that I mind being called a papist when it's John Derbyshire doing the talking.
Posted by: amy at Jun 21, 2005 4:19:28 PM
Although much depends on location, context and the speaker's intent, frankly I have a hard time getting worked up about it. There's enough real malice against the Church out there without sweating stuff like this.
Just a thought--if I take up brewing (as I sometimes idly think of doing), could I call my product Papist Blue Ribbon?
Posted by: Hunk Hondo at Jun 21, 2005 4:23:16 PM
Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that I mind being called a papist when it's John Derbyshire doing the talking.
Yes, Amy, that's how I feel about the colleague of mine (Episcopalian) who calls me a "ROMAN Catholic," bearing down so hard on the first word, he's only a half-step from the folks who call us "Romanists."
Posted by: Naomi at Jun 21, 2005 4:25:56 PM
Derb is somewhat Orange in his religio-cultural origins, so he would call himself a Prod. He's sure that there's a God, and pretty sure one ought to be a Christian, and not entirely convinced that it will really do that much good.
He also still uses the word 'buggery'.
He means little enough offense in referring to Papists that I will take no notice of it. I'm fond of him.
Posted by: Ed the Roman at Jun 21, 2005 4:29:27 PM
Just as it is sometimes "ghetto chic" among American blacks to use the N-Word, I've used various old-time insults in a silly spirit. When a local paper started a group blog, I took particular delight in commenting to one of those angry anti-Catholic lib-dem journalists that she was impotent before the awesome power of the Popish Menace. Maybe I'm just too young to remember such insults being used seriously and having an actual sting.
Posted by: Kevin Jones at Jun 21, 2005 4:30:00 PM
And since my father's people are part Irish Catholic, part Quebecois, I hold as much paper on the Sassenagh as almost anybody here.
:-)
Posted by: Ed the Roman at Jun 21, 2005 4:31:51 PM
It depends entirely on the context. The context includes the focus of the discussion, the character of the person who uses it and the level of trust held by the potential offended....papist.
Posted by: Christopher Rake at Jun 21, 2005 4:33:06 PM
It's a smile-when-you-say-that sort of thing. And an ok-in-the-family sort of thing, similar to black people freely using the n-word to each other. Or for that matter me referring to my fellow Southerners as crackers, rednecks, etc.
I agree that it no longer has the teeth that it used to, but still, I echo the two comments by Amy & Naomi above. There is a subtle venom that some Protestants of the Anglican traditions bring to bear with these terms.
Not that it's something I'd get seriously bent out of shape over in any case, but still, it can rankle. And I agree with Amy: Derbyshire rankles.
Posted by: Maclin Horton at Jun 21, 2005 4:35:56 PM
Also, didn't an Episcopalian Supreme Court Justice recently refer to Catholics as "Romans"? I thought it was reported at GetReligion, but I can't find it.
Posted by: Kevin Jones at Jun 21, 2005 4:36:34 PM
Sorry for the aside, but what's wrong with using the word "buggery"?
Posted by: Adolfo Rodriguez at Jun 21, 2005 4:37:06 PM
I agree with Victor, Ed, Susan, Ian, Hunk and Jeff. I view it as an amusing term of endearment, and use it (and others pointed out by Victor) all the time. But context means everything. Given "Darbesheer's" chronic potshots directed toward the Church and Her teachings, it is fair I suppose to be a bit skeptical, but I'm inclined to assume the best and roll on. Darb is a bit full of himself, and his criticisms of Catholicism can be unjustifiably arrogant, but I seriously doubt he is the least bit anti-Catholic in the sense of bigotry. People are sometimes just too sensitive about nonsense, as Darb's "Jewess" example illustrates.
Posted by: Mike Petrik at Jun 21, 2005 4:43:33 PM
Ed the Roman: "Sasanagh amach anois!!"
Posted by: john at Jun 21, 2005 4:56:10 PM
I personally don't feel offended when the term is used jocularly, but is Derbyshire for real in claiming to be unaware that the term is considered offensive? I've been aware that the word was regarded as an offensive insult since I was aware that the word existed, and every dictionary would back me up.
Posted by: James Kabala at Jun 21, 2005 4:59:47 PM
Maybe things are different in England, but from where I sit, on both "papist" and "Jewess" Derb seems to have his head deliberately in the sand.
Posted by: James Kabala at Jun 21, 2005 5:02:14 PM
What is the origin of "mackerel snapper"?
Posted by: Troll at Jun 21, 2005 5:11:29 PM
I think ``mackerel snapper'' comes from the fish-on-Friday custom that American Catholics used to observe. My father, now 86, heard it when he was growing up in the Bronx.
Posted by: Annalucia at Jun 21, 2005 5:17:55 PM
The N-word referred to several times above in connection with the African American community has also been applied by Ulster Protestants to their Catholic neighbors.
Posted by: Marion at Jun 21, 2005 5:24:42 PM
