Can a Lactivism Post Beat the Gay Post?

Let's see!

I will set myself apart from other "conservative" commentors (although I mightily resist that monikker myself - but please, let's not get off there) by saying I'm with the Lactivists all the way.

And please don't try to compare breastfeeding an infant with defecating. I mean - just don't.

Yeah, decorum and modesty and consideration of the feelings of others (which is why I drape) but never, in 20+ years of off and on nursing, have I ever retired to a restroom to nurse. I've even nursed, standing up, walking through an art museum. Don't remember which one, but I do remember doing so. Blanket drape, yes indeed, but I am not going to shunted off to a closet just because my baby's hungry.

I'm no romantic about nursing. I've known women who were and get terrifically sentimental about it. I'm not. It's all about the food and practicality to me. I also don't get nursing three-year olds, but oh well. There's a fight for the Lactivists to pick with me.

But poor Barbara Walters. You have the right to your Vaseline lens, the babies have a right to eat, okay? If Chavez can deal, so can you.

Yup, I'm so nurturing!

A scholarly paper on the image of nursing as a way to represent the virtue of Charity

Maria Lactans: A comprehensive collection of art

Comments

[Nance]

Seconded.

[Lauda Jerusalem Dominum]

I'm curious to know whether women breastfed in public say, 50 years ago.

[Nancy]

Thirded.

50 years ago in the US women did not breastfeed at all, in public or elsewhere. It had been put out that there was something wrong with it or something.

[Sean Gallagher]

I don't really know why people get up in arms about it, especially if it is done modestly, as my wife does it. I mean, really, compared to what a lot of people are wearing ordinarily nowadays to which the same people don't raise an eyebrow this is nothing.

[scotch meg]

My mother felt like a hero for nursing 3 months. I nursed 4 of 5 for about 2 years. Insanely, in the 50's doctors (male!) decided nursing wasn't good for babies. Query whether this was worse than hiring a wetnurse so you could save your figure in Victorian times... and even later. My mother-in-law recalls seeing black wetnurses available (like day laborers) in the segregated South of the late 50's. Amazing. Something so natural, and we have to mechanize and replace it? Anyway, at least now there's support (coercion?) in the other direction from the medical community.

[Anthony]

My wife was actually complemented by an older woman while breastfeeding in a restaurant last week. While we have had the occassional dirty look or snide comment, the majority of people have been very helpful and considerate when it came to my wife and daughter's comfort.

[Nancy]

Very good point, Sean. I'm a lot more shocked by some of the "shirts" worn by very young women in my area than I am by someone feeding her baby.

Like you, I don't understand the problem.

[Benedetto]

I think that most folks feel much more comfortable with mammalian way to feed young offspring than avian ways.

Indeed, although we have scenes of Mary lactating to nourish the Lord Jesus and saints, we don't have a single painting or icon that I know of that shows the Holy Spirit as a dove regurtitating to nourish us, the children of God.

[Ellyn]

What do these women have that I didn't have ten to twenty years ago? A catchy name..."lactivist." I love it.

[Simon]

Amy, Great post! You are 100% correct.

I've never understood why the sight of a nursing baby bothered some people. Then again, we live in such an anti-natal society maybe it should not be such a surprise.

Simple decorum suggests nursing moms should make reasonable efforts to "drape" or otherwise be discreet. But whether they do or not, the horror some people seem to feel at the sight of a nursing mother is downright weird.

[Becky]

Regarding whether women breastfed in public fifty years ago: that may have depended on what type of community they lived in. My father grew up in a rural Nebraska farming community in the 1950's and said it was very common during church dinners and the like to see women breastfeeding their babies.

[James Kabala]

Actually, I feel just the opposite way from Ellyn. Does everything have to be turned into a movement and a pressure group? It reminds me of David Brooks's attempt to dub people who believed having children is good "natalist," or the whiny Christians who tried to introduce the term "Christophobic." (Both of these seem to have failed to catch on, thank goodness.) And their tactics seem either silly (the ABC demonstration) or downright sinister (wanting to amend the Civil Rights Act).

[Lauda Jerusalem Dominum]

50 years ago in the US women did not breastfeed at all, in public or elsewhere. It had been put out that there was something wrong with it or something.

OK, then, 100 years ago. Let's look back on a time when there was a much greater sense of modesty in our culture, and see if public breastfeeding was common during that time.

[Radactrice]

Putting aside all activism and "take that! you prudes" mentality, as the nuns who taught me used to say about our clothes, would Mary wear that in public? Or perhaps another way to put it, would you be comfortable with the amount of exposure you were experiencing while nursing if you were in a private audience with Pope Benedict? I think most Catholics wouldn't be comfortable exposing to the Pope as much as the young woman exposed to Chavez, but a light blanket drape would be acceptable.

[ajb]

It's too bad God didn't make it so that milk came out of our fingers. But then I suppose some folks would require us all to wear gloves.

[gsk]

Hmmm, I breastfed five of five, but still have a tough time with the activism.

http://feminine-genius.typepad.com/femininegenius/2005/06/in_your_face_mo.html

[Jane]

Despite my mother's horror, I breast fed my four children. My pastor told me once he did not like going in the churches in Italy because the women there breast fed their bambinos in the pews. Crazy stuff. Modesty is important, I suppose, but come on what are the breasts' function in the first place?

[Anthony]

Lauda,
There's no doubt that 100 years ago public breast feeding would have taken place when women were out in public which was, more than likely, to far less an extent than today.

Do you think that a woman travelling by train would not have breast fed her child? The trains of the day were definitely not equipped with rest rooms that facilitated private feeding. Nor were carriages or any other modes of transportation.

Finally, the society of 100 years ago was far less (over)sexualized than the one we live in today. What's the big deal? If someone has a problem with the fact that my wife needs to feed our child, then it is their problem, not ours.

[amy]

Re: nursing in public in ages past, in the US:

cultural distinctions: Many women didn't nurse, period, and secondly, people didn't take babies out the way they do now, into social settings. I'm sure, though, if Barbara Walters, ace reporter, were traveling on a train through Illinois in 1889, chances are, she might have seen a nursing mother or two.

The cultural issue also relates to other..cultures. Cultures in which women lived lives separate from men for much of the time, this isn't an issue.

So...it's a new situation: A public society in which men and women intermix and babies are taken into situations, in urban areas at least, in which they weren't regularly, decades ago.

So, if we're taking babies out, and we're encouraged to nurse...why should the baby have to eat in a bathroom?

[Rosemarie]

+J.M.J+

I will just make a few comments, treading on eggshells all the way to avoid riling up the anti-breastfeeding crowd of St Blogs (as I've done before).

I'm very much in favor of breastfeeding, having nursed all my children (the oldest didn't fully wean until age 2 1/2). I once belonged to La Leche League as well.

But the notion of a "nurse-in" has never quite sat right with me. I don't believe breastfeeding should be turned into a form of protest. I agree that nursing mothers need their rights protected and all that, I just don't like that particular type of protest.

Also, I don't breastfeed in public because I'm just hyper-modest. I've just never been able to bring myself to do it outside a restroom (and I'm not just talking in the stall; some ladies' rooms have a sitting area, which I would perhaps take advantage of - but still try to cover myself as much as possible.)

In Jesu et Maria,

[Ambrose]

Hey, I have used the American fear of Breast Feeding to my advantage. I never got through airport security so fast as when I told the TSA that I had a breast pump in my carry-on.

[Adrian]

I was surprised that the article actually pointed out (in my mind) the true issue: "'To many mothers, breast-feeding runs up against sexual attitudes toward the breast,' said Dr. Lawrence Gartner." And the article mentions it again later on.

Isn't this the clearest form of women being a sexual object? Think breast, think sex or indecent exposure. Being a father of now three, I see how wonderful it is that my wife, through her own gift can sustain this new born life for the first six months or more.

As far as the social action, I don't have any issue with it expect the sad fact that it actually has to occur to bring attention to it. Fortunately, my wife hasn't been in this situation and she doesn't use a blanket. If anything, that brings attention to it.

Come to think of it, I'll have to poll my NFP classes and see how who can figure out how many times my wife nurses in class. I'll better barely 10% will have noticed.

[Anon]

I wonder if the Starbucks' incident involved an offer of a "special latte"...

[Radactrice]

I've never found "in your face" activism to build bridges of understanding be it breast-feeding or anything else. A hundred years ago, a woman would probably have breast-fed on a train or a stage-coach or wherever she was, but it's very unlikely she would have exposed her entire breast in doing so. If you are breast-feeding discretely, people probably don't even notice you are breast-feeding. If you are doing it to show off, you probably are exposing too much.

[James Kabala]

I was glad to see Rosemary's post. The tone of the comments here is conflating anti-breastfeeding-in-public with anti-breastfeeding in general, when that is far from necessarily the case.
I never liked Barbara Walters, but the attempt to portray her mild remarks as a monstrous injustice (for which some are demanding a public apology!) is so ridiculous that is likely to backfire on the lactivists. Aren't there some real problems (e.g., abortion, world hunger, Darfur, AIDS) that these women could devote their time and energy to?

[Jennifer]

I had to laugh because I was nursing my 5 month old as I read this. I'm no "militant" breastfeeder, I just think it's easier, cheaper and more practical than making a bottle. (And no periods! Hey!) If I'm ever in public, I always drape a blanket. I've never had anyone say anything bad to me, if they even knew what I was doing. After 5 kids, I can do it pretty discretely.

I don't think women should have to go to a bathroom to nurse, but a cover is appropriate in this day and age. You never know what whacko is looking at you.

[Benedetto]

I know there are many wannabee lactavists out there, but how many of you have a Master's Degree in Human Lactation?

...There is also an increasing demand for lactation consultants, as greater numbers of women choose to breastfeed their infants. In response, private and public health agencies have focused on improving the nutrition of mothers and children. The UC Davis Master of Advanced Study in Maternal and Child Nutrition Program is designed to provide a strong scientific background in these topics, and to train professionals to design, implement, and evaluate nutrition intervention programs for mothers and children from a wide variety of cultural, ethnic, and social backgrounds.

The University of California at Davis has an entire Human Lactation Center.

Don't endanger the life of your child by attempting to breastfeed before consulting a professional lactation consultant! (That may be child abuse!)

[Touchy Technician]

I was brestfead starting 51 years ago untill I grew some teeth...

[Claire]

Are we all being a bit unfair re Barbara Walter's comment? First of all, I'd like to have heard exactly what she said. It's possible the breastfeeding woman on her flight was being very immodest -- perhaps she had completely exposed her breasts. Extensive public exposure is just not something that should be done in polite society -- or is everyone now okay with that?

Second, I think a lot of us find breastfeeding to be a very intimate act between mother and child, and we feel we're slighty intruding on this. I have a feeling that, even when it was a common practice a hundred years or so ago, women probably did it on the quiet.

Third, I believe Barbara Walters was unable to bear a child (she had many miscarriages) but does have an adopted daughter. So, maybe viewing breastfeeding could be a bit painful for her.

[James Englert]

Hard to figure what the problem could be. Possible that some men might object because they're a little confused and don't want to be caught looking, as it were. It's OK to look at a baby nursing, but if one sees a momentarily exposed nipple, it's all of a sudden a little sexual or at least private, and one doesn't want to be looking. So perhaps people can feel awkward in the presence of nursing out of a sense of misplaced delicacy.

Most of the time with draping and discretion nothing at all shows, but I remember times when one of our apparently milk-drugged babies would all of sudden unlatch and pop his head up, often with big smile. Great moments, but hard to maintain discretion.

[Mark Shea]

I have the perfect slogan

Lactivism: Because every child deserves a bust in the mouth!

(ducking)

[Lauda Jerusalem Dominum]

I don't think women should have to go to a bathroom to nurse, but a cover is appropriate in this day and age. You never know what whacko is looking at you.

That's one of the things I was getting at. Asking women to be modest about their breastfeeding protects them as well as protecting our sense of modesty.

I believe the breastfeeding mother than made Ms. Walters "uncomfortable" had not covered herself with a blanket.

[Cranky Lawyer]

I think Claire's second point, along with Jennifer's, point the way to the bulk of the "problem" and the "solution."

My only problem with public nursing is when I intrude on a mother and baby. I am embarrassed when I notice too late that I'm interrupting this intimate moment.

Now, that embarrassment is my problem, I realize, but the simple solution is the drape so many moms use. It has become a nearly universal signal of nursing-in-progress that even a klod like me can read.

So, nurse away, mothers! Just give me a clue that it's happening and I'll go away quietly.

But, amy, doesn't nursing in an art museum violate the "no smoking, food, or drink" regulations?

[Sparki]

Since my hands are handicapped, I always had trouble getting a baby latched on discreetly, so I rarely breastfed in public, only when it was absolutely necessary. When my second child was a few months old, we were at a tourist attraction, and I went down into the basement where there were just some empty rooms, got her latched on and draped a blanket over "ground zero" so nobody could see if they happened to wander down. Well, three little old ladies did wander down and noticed the cute little outfit my daughter was wearing. They assumed the baby was sleeping and asked if they could have a peek. I whispered -- yes, WHISPERED -- that the baby was eating, so sorry -- yes, I avoided saying the word "breast" and the three little old ladies were immediately aghast. They couldn't see anything more than when they first came down and were delighted a baby was nearby, but once they found out what the baby was doing, they thought I was a disgusting heathen.

All this to say, I don't think it's the SIGHT of breastfeeding that bothers people as much as the THOUGHT of it.

[Benedetto]

As long as we are on the topic of baby needs while in public places, may I introduce two additional topics?

* What is the current readership's opinion of changing poopy diapers on the floor of a restaurant dining room? This is not a hypothetical question, as I have observed such (in Europe, by American parents). So maybe the restuarant did not have a changing station in the restroom (European restaurants don't have 200 square foot restooms like American restaurants). But, yuck! Sort of kills the appetite, and the air quality.

* Americans seem to be developing SUV sized baby strollers. I have no objections to small baby strollers, especially collapsable ones. But now there seems to be a move toward having baby strollers which are an SUV sized chassis upon which is placed an enormous (probably legal requirement) car seat with cup holders and magazine racks and room for 12 cubic feet of shopping. Some restaurants are now instructing parents to "Park the Stollers Outside" because they are just becoming too obstructive, maybe even impacting fire codes for egress.

Any thoughts on these baby topics?

[Cranky Lawyer]

Shea, that's the breast joke I've seen all day.

[ann]

A century ago, the poor nursed their babies, the rich used wetnurses and formula (bottles). When I had my first baby in 1973, natural childbirth (LaMaze) and La Leche League were in vogue for many young mothers. (In 1947, my own mother was discouraged from nursing me - her first child - after only a few months, but she subsequently nursed my six siblings quite successfully, confident that God knew what He was doing better than the doctor.) I made many friendships through a nursing mothers group I belonged to and enjoyed helping new moms gain confidence in nursing and caring for their babies. Inevitably, as more working mothers returned to their jobs after their baby's birth, the choice was to bottle feed using either formula, or expressing their own breast milk - hardly enjoyable. I look back on my days of nursing my babies with fond memories - knowing I was doing the best for my babies, enjoying the time to be able to interact with each baby, and discovering as the baby grew month by month how being able to offer comfort to him or her when sick or just too overtired to sleep gave me such a sense of satisfaction. In this rush-rush world we live in, nursing a baby is a true gift of time and love that I hope more mothers will come to appreciate.

In poor countries, many babies simply would not survive their first years without their mothers' milk. Here in the US the government pays for infant formula so a baby can go to daycare in order for mom to work. My own opinion is that God gave us marriage not just as a bond between husband and wife, but as a means to protect and nurture the little ones born to them, and provided the perfect way to nourish the baby both physically and emotionally - breastfeeding.

[Radactrice]

It's entirely possible, given the tightness of airplanes today, that even if Ms. Walters was in first class, a nursing one or two year old would would make her uncomfortable. The seats (even in first class) are often so close together, the child's feet could well have been in Ms. Walters lap. Or, having seen how some women behave on airplanes in first class, the woman might have completely removed her top and sat there bare chested reading a magazine. There's more to this story than we probably know.

[GFvonB]

Some art of Our Lady of la Leche:

http://www.missionandshrine.org/statue.htm
http://www.jayikislakfoundation.org/millennium-exhibit/pics/time/0008.jpg

There are a many more portraits of Our Lady of la Leche from many different eras, including some that show a shocking (if you're a Puritan, that is) amount of breast, but I cannot find them on the web.

[Nance]

Asking women to be modest about their breastfeeding protects them as well as protecting our sense of modesty.

I believe the breastfeeding mother than made Ms. Walters "uncomfortable" had not covered herself with a blanket.

Careful there. The "protects them" argument is the basis of the chador, too.

Honestly, the idea that a journalist in her, what? Seventies? Someone who's traveled the world, sat at the elbow of the famous and powerful, interviewed anyone she ever wanted to -- that Barbara-freakin'-Walters could be made "uncomfortable" by the sight of a breastfeeding infant simply defies belief.

Maybe the plane was hot. Maybe the baby hated being draped. Maybe she ought to go back to her magazine. Please.

[Lauda Jerusalem Dominum]

What is the current readership's opinion of changing poopy diapers on the floor of a restaurant dining room?

!

Americans seem to be developing SUV sized baby strollers.

Useless and obnoxious. The only stroller we've ever used extensively is our umbrella stroller (the collapsible variety).

[Radactrice]

Modest breast-feeding mothers of babies never bother me. Better breast-feeding than having the child scream in hunger. But I will admit I have been uncomfortable when children age 4 or 5 run up to their mothers, unbottom their blouses or lift them up, take a couple of swigs and head back to the playground. And when a mother in a bikini removes her top to breast-feed, that is a little too much exposed skin in public for me. Yes, it would be hot under a beach towel for the baby, but...Perhaps I'm just jealous that someone who is breastfeeding has the figure to wear a bikini with or without the top. LOL!

[Radactrice]

As for strollers being the size of SUVs and equipped like lunar landing modules, apparently bigger is better. I never see single strollers anymore. Always at least double and often triple. Kids big enough to walk are being pushed all the time.

[Claire]

Re Nance's comment:

If some people -- yes, even seventy-something "Barbara-freakin'-Walters" -- is offended by immodest breastfeeding, why do we have to expect them to just get over it and/or ignore it?

Why, instead, shouldn't the woman doing the breastfeeding feel she could best do it modestly?

Why offend unnecessarily? Why the imperative to be so in-your-face?

[Benedetto]

Speaking of humanity on airplanes....

I'd much rather see a mother nurse her baby, than a grandfather pull out his dentures after the meal and proceed to clean them by sucking off the food bits.

Hey, grandpa's need nutrition, too, I guess.

[Sue]

It seems agreed that mothers who can do so modestly can breastfeed in public.

But given the content of conversations I've heard and the outfits I've seen worn on The View, I hardly think that modesty was the basis of Barbara Walters' discomfort. I hesitate to say that she's uncomfortable with breastfeeding altogether because all liberal journalists are extremely tolerant and they know everything.

[Nance]

She was sitting next to the woman on an airplane. How "in your face" could anyone even have room to be? Besides, Barbara Walters is a WOMAN. Is she offended in the gym locker room?

I guess what this boils down to is: Is a breast offensive? Not when it's being used for its intended purpose. Not for me, anyway.

[kathleen reilly]

What especially bothers me is that people assume the woman was being immodest when breastfeeding otherwise no one would have had an issue. I have never seen anyone breastfeed immodestly and I live in an urban area where lots of mothers breastfeed. People, including me, go to great lengths to expose as little breast as possible when breastfeeding. I think the presumption would have to be that the mother was being perfectly modest, but Baba was uncomfortable anyway. In which case, c'est dommage baba, but your problem is with messy yucky biology and you are just going to have to deal.

i should add that i saw the video of baba's remark and she seemed extremely prissy about it, there was no story about the mother flashing her breasts, etc., which i'm sure she would have added if it were the case.

[ann]

Ms. Walters - if you again find yourself sitting next to a nursing mom, just MYOB and put your nose in a book or magazine! I'm sure that as a journalist you have seen alot of offensive stuff and heard alot of offensive things - surely, a mother doing what God intended for her baby has to be very far down on your "offensive" list.

(I am thinking that Ms. Walters simply considers breastfeeding "declasse" - her generation preferred bottle feeding.)

If you look at some of the religious art noted above, seems to me the Child Jesus is bigger than an infant in most of them, and Mary doesn't have a blanket thrown over her either.

Amy - can I be practical and sentimental at the same time? I loved nursing my kids and was glad I didn't have to fiddle with bottles.

[ro]

Question: I don't quite understand why the mother has to use a blanket for (apparently) most people to see her as "modest," and not just cover herself with her shirt? Are we only talking about latch-on here? Or is it not thought possible to keep covered with just the shirt? Really curious. I have tried the blanket thing without success at either latching on or keeping the baby and the blanket in place. I don't breastfeed just anywhere because I cannot always latch on without "flashing" anyone. But if the latch-on can be done discreetly enough, then the shirt and the baby are usually sufficient to cover everything.

[Ronny]

This from the article:

"It's nothing against breast-feeding, it's about exposing yourself for people who don't want to see it," said Scotty Stroup, the owner of a restaurant in Round Rock, Tex., where a nursing mother was refused service last fall.

According to Texas law, this guy could have been sued, and he almost certainly would have lost if the report is accurate. From the Texas Statutes Health & Safety Code, Chapter 165:

§ 165.001. LEGISLATIVE FINDING. The legislature finds that breast-feeding a baby is an important and basic act of nurture
that must be encouraged in the interests of maternal and child health and family values. In compliance with the breast-feeding
promotion program established under the federal Child Nutrition Act of 1966 (42 U.S.C. Section 1771 et seq.), the legislature recognizes breast-feeding as the best method of infant nutrition.

§ 165.002. RIGHT TO BREAST-FEED. A mother is entitled to breast-feed her baby in any location in which the mother is authorized to be.

[Benedetto]

QUESTION: How many have seen the "Deleted Scenes" from the "Mr. Incredible" DVD? I sure with they had started the film with the original idea of that neighborhood backyard BBQ! Talk about a contemporary statement about motherhood!

[Mary]

I'm not a mother, but I've always found it quite beautiful to see mothers' nursing in public. Not that they should go out and do it on purpose of course, but they're mothers, darnnit and if their kids are hungry, they should feed them.

Also, on the notion of modesty, I think some of us are confusing modesty with prudishness. What is immodest about a mother breastfeeding her child? I think a drape should be used in public and it's definitely not ideal to have someone's breast hanging out there, but seriously, that's what's breasts are for: to feed infants. It's not immodest to do so in public.

And would Our Lady do it in public? If Jesus were hungry, why wouldn't she?

[Susan Peterson]

I feel pretty extreme about this too. I don't think a blanket is necessary if one has a top which pulls up; the top covers most of the breast. Babies can feel smothered by a blanket and use their arms to pull it off. I have nursed a baby in church at mass and the people standing on either side of me didn't know I was doing it. This doesn't always work, as some babies nurse a bit, pull off and throw their heads back etc. But a very young baby usually doesn't do this. Anyway, I think the right attitude is that babies have the right to nurse whenever and wherever and society would be a lot better off if people got used to this. I remember going in to visit my oldest son's kindergarden class for the morning and naturally taking my nursing infant, and naturally nursing her when she was hungry..and the other visiting mother whispered...maybe you shouldn't do that here...you know, because of the children" Heavy emphasis on "children" in her voice. I looked at her, astonished. Why should children not see a baby nurse? I just didn't get it. I didn't stop,either. There isn't anywhere I have gone with a baby where I didn't nurse. I admit to feeling a bit uncomfortable when I had one of those throw the head back suddenly babies, but just flopped my shirt down over the breast. Then there are those babies who like to play with the other nipple while they nurse on the one and are always trying to push up your blouse so they can do that. I did try to discourage that in public. Nursing toddlers can learn to wait til we get home, and I usually did ask them to wait til we get home. (I have nursed til 2 1/2 twice and til 3 once.) I did nurse my two year old youngest daughter when I visited her day care center at the community college where I was in nursing school. She was the least clingy easiest separating child there; happy to see me and nurse a few minutes but easily waving goodbye and running off to play when I had to go back to class. I know this was partly personality though, as I definitely also had kids who couldn't separate that easily...even, say, at their evaluation for kindergarden...but at least, the nursing didn't MAKE her clingy.

Women have a right to nurse their babies and babies have a right to be nursed. Women shouldn't have to go to the rest room to nurse. I have outright refused to do that, twice and the store people always backed down. No one should make anyone else uncomfortable on purpose though. Even though I think cultures which accept greater exposure of the breast to nurse are healthier in this regard, in this culture one should be as careful about this as one can without getting to the point where a nursing mother feels she has to use a pacifier or bring a bottle with her when she goes out.

Susan Peterson

[john c]

I'm ok with wimmin b-feeding in public, just as long as they're ok with my saying, "watchout, you'll put someone's eye out with that thing!"

[Lauda Jerusalem Dominum]

A mother is entitled to breast-feed her baby in any location in which the mother is authorized to be.

Yes, and if one is refused service at a restaurant one is no longer "authorized" to be there.

I think a good many people would probably be uncomfortable watching a woman breastfeed while they're sitting down to dinner. Maybe they're wrong, maybe not. But is someone compelled to lose business out of respect for a breastfeeding mother?

[Lauda Jerusalem Dominum]

And would Our Lady do it in public? If Jesus were hungry, why wouldn't she?

Given the standards of the time, I would be very surprised if Our Lady would do so in the presence of any man other than St. Joseph.

[kathleen reilly]

PS: mothers breastfeed often because the only other alternative is a crying/fussing/screaming baby. Mothers are actually trying to spare those around them from such a racket, and people just sneer at the breastfeeding, when they should be grateful that some modicum of peace is maintained. obviously they would prefer it if mother and baby both stayed out of public the first few years of life.

[Cheryl]

I'm with Nance. Breastfeeding IS the primary purpose of a breast, and babies need to eat, for heavens sake. It is even more surprising that a woman would express an objection, on television, and on a show that has a predominantly female audience to boot. Unless Barbara's seatmate was completely topless and flamboyant about the task at hand (which is a possibility, but so uncommon I find it hard to believe), you'd think after decades in journalism she'd have enough intuition to keep her discomfort to herself. Might as well broadcast a call for the lactation brigade.

But, Barbara has always seemed a bit self-absorbed to me and she is, after all, a product of her generation (when breastfeeding was seen as something only backward women did). My mom nursed me and my siblings in the early 1960s and endured plenty of grief from friends and family about it.

I nursed all three of my kids and am all for the right to breastfeed whenever and wherever as needed. But while I never went to extremes (restrooms without chairs!) to avoid nursing in public, it was honestly never something I was completely comfortable with either. I was always too worried that my baby wouldn't latch on easily, that the blankie would slip off, etc.

What is it they say about discretion being the better part of valor? ;-)

[Ronny]

Lauda,

You want to test your interpretation in court? I think that it is pretty clear from the chapter in question what the intention of the law is.

Like it or not, that leaves the prudish restaurant owner in Texas with a decision -- do I risk economic loss from a few prudes who might not come back because breastfeeding bothers them, or do I risk an even bigger economic loss from a potential lawsuit if I refuse service to a nursing mother who happens to know her civil rights under Texas law.

[Nancy]

I think a good many people would probably be uncomfortable watching a woman breastfeed while they're sitting down to dinner.

Why are they craning their necks to watch? Why is their attention so taken by people at another table? To the extent that they make the minute examination which would usually be necessary to figure out that a baby was being fed? Why is their attention not at their own table, their own food, the people with them?

[kathleen reilly]

Lauda, if that were the case, then you are suggesting Mary stayed at home and inside for about 2-4 years. I doubt that. "Given the standards of the time" (which did not include formula, bottles, artificial nipples or air conditioning)

[Sue]

Lauda

I think the Texas law would prohibit the restaurant in question from refusing service on the basis of breastfeeding, unless restaurants in Texas are authorized to refuse service to anyone at anytime for any reason.

And if the restaurant's hands are tied in this way, I don't think that they would lose business.

[Radactrice]

Men and women didn't freely associate in the Middle East of Jesus' time (and still don't in many parts of the Middle East today). Nursing mothers would probably not have been out in public places where men would have been seeing them, and that would include Mary. She would have lived most of her life with women. Only women of scandal were out when men could see them...hence the woman at the well when Jesus was there. Had she been a "decent" woman she would have come with the other women at the designated time, but since she wasn't "decent" she had to do at a time when she would be seen by a man. I highly doubt that Mary nursed anywhere that she could have been seen by any man. And the Medieval paintings reflect a Medieval notion, not first century reality. Besides which, those paintings are intended to convey a theological truth, not a history lesson in how Mary breast fed.
And while breasts are intended to feed children, they are also a highly visible secondary sexual characteristic, especially in our culture. We might prefer that not to be the case, but it reamins a fact. In our Western culture, breasts are more than attached self-sustaining baby feeding devices.

[Andrea Harris]

Delicate people should stay indoors, where nasssty dirty real life won't bother them. (Note: never had a baby, never had an interest in having a baby, don't see anything wrong with mothers breastfeeding anywhere they want as long as they don't do it stark naked while yelling "Yoo hoo! My milkshake brings all the boys to my yard!)

[Ronny]

That's... quite the image that you have put in my mind, Andrea.

[GFvonB]

Lauda, as a Historian, I assure you that your unsupported claims about the social history of breastfeeding are 100% false.

[Sue]

Andrea,

I am reassured to know that you would not be offended by my breastfeeding. You should be hosting The View. I hope that they're reading this.

[Benedetto]

Oh, Andrea, I love that song! My wife hits me every time I listen to it.

My milkshake brings all the boys to the yard,
And their like
It's better than yours,
Damn right it's better than yours,
I can teach you,
But I have to charge

Kelis must be one of those professional lactation consultants with a Master's degree from UC Davis!

I just listen to that rap for the intricate percussion rhythms, honest.

[Victor Morton]

I had my first "breast-feeding woman" moment a couple of weeks ago. I was in a campus chapel's basement library, killing time reading before Mass when a mom walked in carrying a baby. She asked me if I minded if she fed: "I'll cover up and all," she assured me.

I offered to leave, but she said that wasn't needed. I was careful to remain seated in a chair that had my back to her, but I did notice that she closed the door.

Ironic -- to preserve modesty, she shut herself in a room with a strange man not her husband. There are places in the world where that will get you killed.

[Rosemarie]

+J.M.J+

Maybe I should clarify: I'm all for public breastfeeding as long as it's discreet, I just can't bring myself to do it.

As for women who want to "let it all hang out," well, that would be okey-doke if we lived in Africa where that have different standards of modesty, but not here. Yeah, our culture is excessively prudish and absurdly squemish about a natural physical process, but like it or not we have to respect that.

In Jesu et Maria,

[Benedetto]

Victor, I would have done the Flight of Joseph at that point. No way in hell I would stay in a closed room with a woman alone like that (other than my wife or a doctor). Receipe for scandal at the very least.

[Lauda Jerusalem Dominum (dcs)]

Lauda, as a Historian, I assure you that your unsupported claims about the social history of breastfeeding are 100% false.

What claims are those? As an historian, I'm sure you know that men and women did not freely associate with one another at the time at which Our Lord was an infant. Surely you're not suggesting that a culture in which women covered their heads in public would have deemed public breastfeeding appropriate.

[Lauda Jerusalem Dominum]

Yeah, our culture is excessively prudish and absurdly squemish about a natural physical process

One might also consider whether, say, some African cultures are excessively open about such things.

[Sandra Miesel]

The Virgo Lactans images so popular in the Middle Ages were indeed teaching a theological truth about the humanity of Christ. Rich women of the day used hired wetnurses. Edward III's queen Philippa caused quite a sensation in the 14th C when she nursed her large brood herself.
So why don't we see images of the nursing Madonna any more? The Council of Trent demanded "dignified" religious art. Maria Lactans was out as well as the bare naked Christ Child. Hispanics ignored this new policy, however, in part because the decrees of Trent were not promulgated in Spain.
The baby bottle was known in Germany at least by 1500.

[kathleen reilly]

"Only women of scandal were out when men could see them...hence the woman at the well when Jesus was there. Had she been a "decent" woman she would have come with the other women at the designated time, but since she wasn't "decent" she had to do at a time when she would be seen by a man."

Umm, yeah, Radactrice, and Jesus didn't exactly make a big deal of it, did He? It was, what we might call it today -- a "non-issue". Seems to me your argument defeats the point you seem to want to make, that public breastfeeding is indecent.

[Sr. Lorraine]

There's no question that breast-feeding is better for the baby. Mom's milk has a lot of the important omega-3 fatty acids necessary for brain development. It's also high in cholesterol, which is a GOOD thing for the baby.
Studies have shown that breast-fed babies have health advantages later in life, including better cognitive development and even better blood pressure. God's way is the best way.
It's also a natural way to help space out children.

[Anthony]

"One might also consider whether, say, some African cultures are excessively open about such things."

That is exceptionally xenophobic don't you think? "Excessively open"? Don't make the mistake of applying your worldview to an environmental situation unless you have experienced it for yourself.

[Victor Morton]

Benedetto:

When her husband came back and caught us in full shirtless embrace and lip-lock, well ... that's when the fireworks started ...

Seriously, after a while, the husband came into the library room, and he neither said nor paid me any heed, although the layout of the room made it impossible for him not to see me and not to see that I was sitting with my back to his wife.

I think it would have been ungentlemanly and potentially needlessly-guilt-inducing for me to have left the room, particularly after she turned down my offer to leave. She was being as modest as possible, and the circumstances allowed me to avoid seeing anything at all. That said, I would not die unfulfilled if I never see a woman breast-feed in person, and if circumstances did not allow it (say, she was in a seat directly opposite mine on a train, so I'm looking right at her), I probably would find an excuse to go somewhere else.

As for scandal ... that's too tied to the behavioral customs of a given society to say anything absolute. In this society at this time, the public space, including the workplace and public accommodations like libraries, is mixed-sex. So no sane person can infer anything about two strangers like myself and this woman.

[Dorian Speed]

Isn't the point of asking, "What would Mary do?" or "What did Mary do?" to determine whether or not it is sinful to engage in whatever action is being contemplated? Or are we saying that the only acceptable behavior with regards to public breastfeeding and other practices that differ from culture to culture is to adhere to what a first-century Jewish woman would have done?

Is it sinful, then, to breastfeed in public? That's the question here, right? If the intent is not to provoke, but to provide nourishment, and if it's being done modestly enough to not reveal anything that would be barred from a PG movie - I don't see how it could be wrong.

If another person is uncomfortable with my breastfeeding my infant, I don't take the attitude of, "you can just deal with it," but I also haven't ever stopped feeding my child if it made someone uncomfortable. I've never been directly approached about this, of course, and I've always relied on a sling to drape during the latch-on. I guess I see myself as having the opportunity to educate the squeamish that it really isn't gross and exhibitionist to nurse an infant in public. I don't want to do anything to burn that bridge, but I also am not going to change my behavior to accomodate irrational responses to the very fact that I'm nursing.

It would be interesting to hear from the woman who discomfitted Barbara Walters, if she even realizes what's come of her decision.

For what it's worth, I've breastfed pretty much everywhere, including on several airplanes. I always made a big, big effort to completely cover myself on the airplane, and I felt sorry for the person sitting next to me - but what else could I do? Neither of my babies has been on board with the "taking a bottle from mom" plan, and it's good to keep their ears from hurting on the airplane.

[Eileen R]

Americans seem to be developing SUV sized baby strollers.

These aren't as useless as some commenters seem to assume. I have seven younger brothers, five of whom I pushed around in strollers all over the place, and my mother's expecting a ninth child as of July 1st. And I've got to say, thank God for our SUV sized baby stroller. For one thing, you can actually push those things up *mountains*. I'll never forget Hurricane Ridge, Washington State in the Olympic Mountains, the day the SUV stroller proved its worth. They turn on a dime, have much better breaking and maneuverability. Plus you can put stuff that you'd have to carry otherwise in the stroller with the kid. Not that we call it a stroller. We call it 'the baby buggy.'

[Eileen R]

Anyway, my mother is one of the most modest women I know. She uses a blanket or wears a long shirt when nursing in public. But it never occured to me or my brothers that we should ever have been shocked at home at seeing her nipple when the baby would look up from his meal. For a lot of people, the nipple is pretty de-sexualized in that context.

[Ambrose]

"My milkshake brings all the boys to the yard..."
Groan.... a new earworm.
And that Benedetto admitted it as his guilty pleasure....head spinning :-)

[Anon]

Posting anonymously this time only.

What really bothers me about Babs' reaction is that it seems more anti-child than anti-nursing. Would she have been less horrified if the mom next to her had been trying to spoon-feed a reluctant 11 month old some nice, staining vegetable like strained carrots which might at any moment be sent forth in a shower of glorious orange spray in Ms. Walter's direction? Or was she just annoyed to be seated next to a mother and child?

Children, even the best of them, are noisy, squirmy, messy, unpredictable and inconvenient little people--and they are also beyond wonderful. The people who say they don't want to watch a mom nurse in a restaurant probably don't want a bottle-fed baby unleashing projectile spit-up in the restaurant, either. The people who sniff about moms nursing in church--even in the back--are the same ones who glared at me when my then two-year-old discovered that a rosary made an enchanting clinking sound when you shook it. Those who think the only proper place to nurse in a store is in the restroom probably don't have much patience with a bored five-year-old playing peek-a-boo among the racks of merchandise while mom desperately tries to find a gift for her mother-in-law's birthday. And those who assert that our Lady certainly did not nurse in front of any man other than St. Joseph must think the newborn Christ Child didn't get hungry at all on the night of His birth, or at least, not until all those dirty shepherds had left.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that nursing moms have the right to walk around topless, or that they should go out of their way to make other people uncomfortable. But I think we need to acknowledge that behind at least a little of the "don't nurse that baby in public" attitude is the attitude that wishes parents of little ones would just stay home until the children are old enough not to bother anybody.

[kathleen reilly]

from an internet bulletin board in DC for mothers:

"
Thank you for sending me the NY Times article on breastfeeding. I believe
that I was the woman on the plane. I started my journey in Johannesburg
South Africa and flew to NY (18 hours) with my 2 month old son. I then
switched airports to fly the shuttle to DC and encountered Barbara Walters
on the plane. I was 3 seats from her. She made a comment about not
wanting to sit near a baby which I ignored. I breast fed during the
take-off and landing to protect my baby's ears. He did great - did not
cry at all - on all of the flights from South AFrica to DC and back. And
he got to meet all four grandparents ... I thank everyone for supporting
us about breastfeeding!"

two months old! for the non-experienced -- two month olds usually don't expose a lot of breast. they just lie there and eat and don't make a spectacle of it like older kids (not to mention the fact that the only other thing they can have is formula) note she also nursed during take off and landing, not the whole time.

[Nancy]

Like many here, I think a lot of this objection is, at bottom, as much anti-child as anything else. God forbid that we should have children at all, so messy, so inconvenient, so noisy. And if we do make the mistake of not having an abortion, the least we can do is sequester ourselves at home until the kids start college.

And actually feeding the little monster? Why, that might make it grow!

[Andrea Harris]

"The people who... probably don't want a bottle-fed baby unleashing projectile spit-up in the restaurant, either."

You know, I think I'm pretty safe in saying that covers just about everyone, even the strange people who dote over every baby they see. I always thought that projectile vomiting was a baby's way of warning off the Strange Baby Doters, kind of like a rattlesnake's rattle.

[Liam]

Oh, just to help this thread jump past the "Gay Post", I'll chime in.

I have zero problem with breast feeding in public (including in church during Mass, just to hammer that nail in completely), and would only encourage more mothers to feel comfortable enough to do it if they so wish or need.

[Pam]

Maybe Baba Wawa is just jealwus. The grocery store mags have been busting with coverage of Brittany's pregnancy, Baby Apple, Julia Roberts and other celebrity moms and moms-to-be. Today I saw a very pregnant woman wearing a bra and panties on a Jockey underwear commercial. Having babies is "in".
I was not a militant breastfeeder, but I'm glad that these mothers protested. I think her critical remarks of a mother breastfeeding her infant stinks like dirty diapers and expose her as an old biddy.

[Radactrice]

Seems to me your argument defeats the point you seem to want to make, that public breastfeeding is indecent.

I've never said that. I've said I have no problem with breastfeeding. "Modest breast-feeding mothers of babies never bother me. Better breast-feeding than having the child scream in hunger." My only point was that Mary probably wasn't freely breast-feeding Jesus outside her home since she probably wasn't freely leaving her home, period. I hardly think Jesus would have been scandalized by breastfeeding since he wasn't scandalized by prostitution. But what Jesus did with prostititues and the low life, Mary probably didn't do with an infant.
As for what would Mary do being the criterion for sin, not when I was being reared. It was intended to be a measure of modesty and decorum, not sin, at least most of the time.

[kathleen reilly]

Radactrice, If Jesus doesn't care about such "modesty and decorum", then I don't care either.

Anyway, Radactrice, no nursing women in public in 1st c. Judea? see Luke: "People were also bringing babies to Jesus to have him touch them. When the disciples saw this, they rebuked them. But Jesus called the children to him and said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it."

where there is a little child in 1c. Judea, there is a lactating woman not far behind.

[Radactrice]

Having children brought to Jesus doesn't mean the mothers were nursing at that exact moment. I'm quite sure Jesus saw nursing mothers, but women didn't have the freedom we do now and simply weren't out in public as much as modern women are.
And Kathleen, where does Jesus and decorum come in here? When I was growing up, the nuns would say things like: Would Mary wear earrings like those? Or Would Mary wear that bright of a color? Would Mary speak in that loud of a voice? Mary was used as THE standard for dress, behavior, speech etc.

[Michael Gorman]

Here's what St. Bernard thought about breastfeeding in public:

http://www.stfx.ca/academic/catholic-studies/art/alonso-st_bernard_and_the_virgin.jpg

(Prudish people should not go to that link.)

[Radactrice]

Good aim.

[kathleen reilly]

Radactrice, I'm saying Jesus' example is more important than some remote notion of Marian decorum, especially one that is so divorced from biological reality.

you said "women didn't have the freedom we do now and simply weren't out in public as much as modern women are." what is the basis for this? The new testament doesn't describe many unisex public gatherings. sermon on the mount? loaves and fishes? wedding at cana? raising of lazarus? none have ever been described as men only, and almost all expressly included women.

Lately I nurse about every 90 minutes. if any public gathering with jesus lasted more than 90 minutes and was NOT unisex, then Jesus most assuredly witnessed nursing. In any case, you are FAR FROM safe in assuming that nobody nursed in the instance described in luke.
It's likely most adult women spent the majority of their adult life lactating, often nursing in tandem, as well as nursing while pregnant. So I just can't buy your version of events.

[reluctant penitent]

If you believe that having kids is important and that allowing women to leave the house is important and you believe that it's important for infants to be well-fed (and I, for one, believe all three) then you cannot but support the right of women to breastfeed in public. Either provide public breastfeeding areas or deal with it. Sent women to the bathrooms to breastfeed? A disgraceful suggestion!

[Ronny]

Good aim.

No kidding, and good trajectory and distance to boot. I think that painting is an instance of a lesser known subset of Virgo Lactans that experts call Virgo Iaculans.

[Ronny]

Here is a question -- who here would want to eat his or her dinner in a public restroom?

I thought so.

[Ronny]

Victor, I would have done the Flight of Joseph at that point. No way in hell I would stay in a closed room with a woman alone like that (other than my wife or a doctor). Receipe for scandal at the very least.

Please tell me you are joking.

[Dorian Speed]

Radatrice, I must admit that I'm stumped. "Would Mary wear that bright a color?" What is the point of that question?

Is it that cultivating decorum and humility in dress is considered cultivating virtue? I guess I can see that, if that's what you're saying. I don't mean to be slamming on nuns. My nuns just didn't ask questions like that.

And I just don't see what it has to do with the question, I suppose. Is the act of breastfeeding inherently immodest, even if skin is not being exposed? I don't think so. Your arguments would seem to indicate that, perhaps, you do - based on the assertion that Mary wouldn't have breastfed in public. But is there any evidence that Mary herself considered breastfeeding an inherently immodest practice? Or are you just speculating as to what the cultural norms were of the time?