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June 24, 2005
Reader Bleg
I am writing in the hopes that you may know of either
web-sites or perhaps books on Proper ecclesial Latin?
It seems to be hidden well in the vaults, so to speak.
I would truly appreciate any help you may give.
Well?
Posted by Amy Welborn | Permalink
Comments
I'm not quite sure I understand the question, so I'll try to answer a few different ways.
If you want Church publications in Latin, you can order them online from the Vatican via Paxbook. You can pay with credit card, and they deliver via UPS.
You can also find many online documents in Latin at the Vatican website.
You can also learn a lot from "The Pope's Latinist," Fr. Reginald Foster.
If you just want a pronunciaion guide for Ecclesiastical Latin (as opposed to Classical Latin), you can find one at EWTN.
Posted by: Zhou at Jun 24, 2005 6:05:30 PM
John Collins, A PRIMER OF ECCLESIASTICAL LATIN (CUA Press) is a good textbook.
Posted by: reluctant penitent at Jun 24, 2005 6:32:07 PM
The Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter publishes "Primer of Ecclesiastical Latin" by John F. Collines:
Aimed at imparting a reading knowledge of ecclesiastical texts within one year of study through grammar, exercises and readings by Church authors.
http://www.fssp.com/main/publications.html
Posted by: Jason at Jun 24, 2005 6:34:05 PM
Oops. Posted at the same time as reluctant penitent.
Posted by: Jason at Jun 24, 2005 6:34:49 PM
TAN publishing has a text book series out that's a reprint of a series used in seminaries in the 40's and 50's. It uses the old code of canon law and the liturgical texts as examples, rather than Hannibal crossing the Alps with his elephants (or all of Gaul being halved into three quarters - sorry, inside Latin joke).
The Collins book is also good.
Posted by: Tim Ferguson at Jun 24, 2005 6:43:23 PM
And now there's a decent dictionary for English speakers, too - Dictionary of Ecclesiastical Latin, published in 1995 -- and it's only $20! It's got all those Vatican II words.
Posted by: Michael Tinkler at Jun 24, 2005 7:06:22 PM
I would also recommend that as soon as you feel up to it, begin reading actual texts in Latin--whatever interests you.
There is the website of the Treasury of Latin Prayers.
The Bible (Nova Vulgata) is available at the Vatican website.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church is availabe at the Vatican website in Latin, as well as English, French, German, Italian and Spanish.
The Ordinary for the Mass in available online 1975 and 1962.
There are also many online collections of Latin quotes and phrases, in case you need to say "Fac me cocleario vomere!" (Gag me with a spoon!) or something.
I also like Conversational Latin for Oral Proficiency, just in case you need to ask someone to turn down the air conditioner in Latin.
Posted by: Zhou at Jun 24, 2005 7:22:25 PM
Btw,
Don't tell Benedict XVI.
His version of ecclesiastical Latin is German.
Repeat before me, "QVAEsumus...."
There are many national variations on ecclesiastical Latin pronunciation. It may be universal, but it is not uniform, as it were.
Posted by: Liam at Jun 24, 2005 7:27:05 PM
A good intermediate text, taking you through texts in the vulgate, is available here:
A Volgate Old Testament Reader
Posted by: Mark Wyman at Jun 24, 2005 8:01:30 PM
http://www.hieronymus.us/
Posted by: GFvonB at Jun 24, 2005 9:07:02 PM
I think people are better off getting hold of Wheelock and learning classical Latin first; ditto Chase and Phillips with Greek. The later forms of the language make a great deal more sense if you know whence they came. And contrary to popular opinion, mediaeval Latin and Koine Greek are by no means uniformly simple in syntax -- I always try to talk students out of reading St. Paul with me since I don't want to work that hard.
The Pope has a German accent to be sure, but he is still using the Italian pronunciation, like Cardinal Stickler with his famous "mea gulpa, mea gulpa, mea magzima gulpa". I sing true German Latin frequently, where "ecce" has to come out "ek-say", "caelum" becomes "ts-o (with umlaut)-lum", and half the "e"s are closed almost to "ee". But if you sing Bach or the Masses of Mozart and Haydn with Italian Latin you make sounds the composer never heard.
Posted by: David Kubiak at Jun 24, 2005 9:48:14 PM
Getting ready??
Posted by: peter wilson at Jun 24, 2005 10:58:40 PM
Ahem.
http://www.memoriapress.com
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/052144747X/002-2507031-0251211?v=glance
http://homepages.wmich.edu/~johnsorh/MedievalLatin/
http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/medieval/publ.html#tmlt
http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/medieval/aethicus/index.html
Posted by: Plato's Stepchild at Jun 24, 2005 11:07:14 PM
On the home page of my parish web site are links to a very brief guide on pronunciation of ecclesial Latin, plus links to audiofiles (excluding Eucharistic Prayer) and text files of the Latin Mass today: "Novus Ordo Missae cum Populo"
Look for headlines: "Learn to Pray in Latin"
and "The Mass in Latin."
Parish web site:
http://saintmaryparish.net/
I hope this helps!
Posted by: Peggy at Jun 24, 2005 11:09:41 PM
Mozart at least heard the Italianate pronunciation even if he didn't employ it, as he traveled in Italy extensively as a young person.
For instance, when he copied the Misereri of Allegeri in the Sistine Chapel.
http://tinyurl.com/b2wqd
Posted by: Samuel J. Howard at Jun 25, 2005 12:00:30 AM
The Latin Mass Society of England has this website of Latin lessons:
http://www.latin-mass-society.org/simplicissimus/
Posted by: Paul McLachlan at Jun 25, 2005 1:40:24 AM
Parallel Bible with Latin Vulgate and Douay-Rheims English translation
Posted by: David W. at Jun 25, 2005 6:29:58 AM
David K--In over 40 years of choral singing (and tutelage/seminar sessions with Roger Wagner, Paul Salamunovich, Robert Shaw, and others...) the over-riding concern was NEVER 'how Bach heard it.'
The choral singer's sole concern is purity of vowel--that is, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER a dipthong.
The second concern was "sing it like it is music."
Posted by: Dad29 at Jun 25, 2005 7:46:10 AM
This is getting off the topic, but...
I learned Greek from Chase and Philllips with mixed results. It could very well be that my intellect was no match for the Grammar school-age boys for which it was written in the 1920s. I found Hansen and Quinn far more helpful: they actually explain the grammar and syntax in greater detail.
Noone has mentioned the (ecclesiastical) Latin classic textbooks by Fr. Henle. Ecclesiastical pronunciation, with Ecclesiastical and Classical vocabulary, and dry Jesuit wit. I recommend it, even though it's meant for the same sort of aforementioned grammar school-aged boys.
Posted by: abigail at Jun 25, 2005 8:07:06 AM
Ralph McInerny (the philosopher/novelist)has Let's Read Latin: Introduction to the Language of the Church, published by Dumb Ox Books, and available from Amazon.com. Very basic introduction, and comes with audiocassette.
Posted by: Frank at Jun 25, 2005 8:21:38 AM
"Noone has mentioned the (ecclesiastical) Latin classic textbooks by Fr. Henle. Ecclesiastical pronunciation, with Ecclesiastical and Classical vocabulary, and dry Jesuit wit. I recommend it, even though it's meant for the same sort of aforementioned grammar school-aged boys."
Au contraire. A serf to www.memoriapress.com will show Fr Henle's texts in all their glory -- for the appropriate age group.
However, my personal favorite for adult learners is the combination of
Jones & Sidwell's Reading Latin Series, combined with Sidwell's sequel Medieval Latin.
Posted by: Plato's Stepchild at Jun 25, 2005 10:10:27 AM
http://www.hieronymus.us/Venalia/IndEngl.htm
This link provides a course with a book and tapes for learning latin as a living lanugage.
Also, plenty of tapes of books of the Bible.
Posted by: socius at Jun 25, 2005 12:12:06 PM
For people who speak Spanish, a new book has just been edited:
Julián Aguilar Pérez, Vicente Calvo Fernández, Ignacio García Pinilla, Luis Inclán García-Robés, Salve! Aprender latín en la tradición cristiana, 29 €, 2005. ISBN 84-313-2291-8 592 p.
Posted by: Compostela at Jun 25, 2005 12:37:54 PM
Thanks for the tip Dr. Kubiak.
Posted by: Terry at Jun 25, 2005 2:23:54 PM
Point well taken about traveling composers and Latin pronunciation. I was thinking about the sounds these men had in their heads as they were writing their own compositions. A good example would be the 'omnes generationes' section of the Bach 'Magnificat'. If a choir sings the first word with an open Italian 'e' and the second with a soft Italian 'g' followed by another open 'e', they will defeat Bach's incisive rhythmic effects. In general Italian Latin in German classical music greatly muddies the fugal sections. And it's fun to watch the audience's face the first time you sing 'eleison' as 'ee-lie-zon'.
Posted by: David Kubiak at Jun 25, 2005 2:54:11 PM
