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June 24, 2005

Comments

Zhou

I'm not quite sure I understand the question, so I'll try to answer a few different ways.

If you want Church publications in Latin, you can order them online from the Vatican via Paxbook. You can pay with credit card, and they deliver via UPS.

You can also find many online documents in Latin at the Vatican website.

You can also learn a lot from "The Pope's Latinist," Fr. Reginald Foster.

If you just want a pronunciaion guide for Ecclesiastical Latin (as opposed to Classical Latin), you can find one at EWTN.

reluctant penitent

John Collins, A PRIMER OF ECCLESIASTICAL LATIN (CUA Press) is a good textbook.

Jason

The Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter publishes "Primer of Ecclesiastical Latin" by John F. Collines:

Aimed at imparting a reading knowledge of ecclesiastical texts within one year of study through grammar, exercises and readings by Church authors.

http://www.fssp.com/main/publications.html

Jason

Oops. Posted at the same time as reluctant penitent.

Tim Ferguson

TAN publishing has a text book series out that's a reprint of a series used in seminaries in the 40's and 50's. It uses the old code of canon law and the liturgical texts as examples, rather than Hannibal crossing the Alps with his elephants (or all of Gaul being halved into three quarters - sorry, inside Latin joke).
The Collins book is also good.

Michael Tinkler

And now there's a decent dictionary for English speakers, too - Dictionary of Ecclesiastical Latin, published in 1995 -- and it's only $20! It's got all those Vatican II words.

Zhou

I would also recommend that as soon as you feel up to it, begin reading actual texts in Latin--whatever interests you.

There is the website of the Treasury of Latin Prayers.

The Bible (Nova Vulgata) is available at the Vatican website.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church is availabe at the Vatican website in Latin, as well as English, French, German, Italian and Spanish.

The Ordinary for the Mass in available online 1975 and 1962.

There are also many online collections of Latin quotes and phrases, in case you need to say "Fac me cocleario vomere!" (Gag me with a spoon!) or something.

I also like Conversational Latin for Oral Proficiency, just in case you need to ask someone to turn down the air conditioner in Latin.

Liam

Btw,

Don't tell Benedict XVI.

His version of ecclesiastical Latin is German.

Repeat before me, "QVAEsumus...."

There are many national variations on ecclesiastical Latin pronunciation. It may be universal, but it is not uniform, as it were.

Mark Wyman

A good intermediate text, taking you through texts in the vulgate, is available here:

A Volgate Old Testament Reader

GFvonB

http://www.hieronymus.us/

David Kubiak

I think people are better off getting hold of Wheelock and learning classical Latin first; ditto Chase and Phillips with Greek. The later forms of the language make a great deal more sense if you know whence they came. And contrary to popular opinion, mediaeval Latin and Koine Greek are by no means uniformly simple in syntax -- I always try to talk students out of reading St. Paul with me since I don't want to work that hard.

The Pope has a German accent to be sure, but he is still using the Italian pronunciation, like Cardinal Stickler with his famous "mea gulpa, mea gulpa, mea magzima gulpa". I sing true German Latin frequently, where "ecce" has to come out "ek-say", "caelum" becomes "ts-o (with umlaut)-lum", and half the "e"s are closed almost to "ee". But if you sing Bach or the Masses of Mozart and Haydn with Italian Latin you make sounds the composer never heard.

peter wilson

Getting ready??

Plato's Stepchild

Ahem.

http://www.memoriapress.com

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/052144747X/002-2507031-0251211?v=glance

http://homepages.wmich.edu/~johnsorh/MedievalLatin/

http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/medieval/publ.html#tmlt

http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/medieval/aethicus/index.html


Peggy

On the home page of my parish web site are links to a very brief guide on pronunciation of ecclesial Latin, plus links to audiofiles (excluding Eucharistic Prayer) and text files of the Latin Mass today: "Novus Ordo Missae cum Populo"

Look for headlines: "Learn to Pray in Latin"
and "The Mass in Latin."
Parish web site:
http://saintmaryparish.net/


I hope this helps!

Samuel J. Howard

Mozart at least heard the Italianate pronunciation even if he didn't employ it, as he traveled in Italy extensively as a young person.

For instance, when he copied the Misereri of Allegeri in the Sistine Chapel.

http://tinyurl.com/b2wqd

Paul McLachlan

The Latin Mass Society of England has this website of Latin lessons:

http://www.latin-mass-society.org/simplicissimus/

David W.

Parallel Bible with Latin Vulgate and Douay-Rheims English translation

Dad29

David K--In over 40 years of choral singing (and tutelage/seminar sessions with Roger Wagner, Paul Salamunovich, Robert Shaw, and others...) the over-riding concern was NEVER 'how Bach heard it.'

The choral singer's sole concern is purity of vowel--that is, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER a dipthong.

The second concern was "sing it like it is music."

abigail

This is getting off the topic, but...
I learned Greek from Chase and Philllips with mixed results. It could very well be that my intellect was no match for the Grammar school-age boys for which it was written in the 1920s. I found Hansen and Quinn far more helpful: they actually explain the grammar and syntax in greater detail.
Noone has mentioned the (ecclesiastical) Latin classic textbooks by Fr. Henle. Ecclesiastical pronunciation, with Ecclesiastical and Classical vocabulary, and dry Jesuit wit. I recommend it, even though it's meant for the same sort of aforementioned grammar school-aged boys.

Frank

Ralph McInerny (the philosopher/novelist)has Let's Read Latin: Introduction to the Language of the Church, published by Dumb Ox Books, and available from Amazon.com. Very basic introduction, and comes with audiocassette.

Plato's Stepchild

"Noone has mentioned the (ecclesiastical) Latin classic textbooks by Fr. Henle. Ecclesiastical pronunciation, with Ecclesiastical and Classical vocabulary, and dry Jesuit wit. I recommend it, even though it's meant for the same sort of aforementioned grammar school-aged boys."

Au contraire. A serf to www.memoriapress.com will show Fr Henle's texts in all their glory -- for the appropriate age group.

However, my personal favorite for adult learners is the combination of

Jones & Sidwell's Reading Latin Series, combined with Sidwell's sequel Medieval Latin.

socius

http://www.hieronymus.us/Venalia/IndEngl.htm

This link provides a course with a book and tapes for learning latin as a living lanugage.

Also, plenty of tapes of books of the Bible.

Compostela

For people who speak Spanish, a new book has just been edited:
Julián Aguilar Pérez, Vicente Calvo Fernández, Ignacio García Pinilla, Luis Inclán García-Robés, Salve! Aprender latín en la tradición cristiana, 29 €, 2005. ISBN 84-313-2291-8 592 p.

Terry

Thanks for the tip Dr. Kubiak.

David Kubiak

Point well taken about traveling composers and Latin pronunciation. I was thinking about the sounds these men had in their heads as they were writing their own compositions. A good example would be the 'omnes generationes' section of the Bach 'Magnificat'. If a choir sings the first word with an open Italian 'e' and the second with a soft Italian 'g' followed by another open 'e', they will defeat Bach's incisive rhythmic effects. In general Italian Latin in German classical music greatly muddies the fugal sections. And it's fun to watch the audience's face the first time you sing 'eleison' as 'ee-lie-zon'.

Mila Morales

The Nova Vulgata Bible can also be purchased from the Daughters of St. Paul, either on line or at any of their stores. For the ordinary of the Mass (Novus Ordo)complete with all prefaces--or most of them, anyway--the Daily Roman Missal from Scepter is wonderful. It also has a treasure of prayers for before and after Mass in Latin, with their respective English translations.

Mark R

"Eleison" isn't Latin.

Robert

But in ecclesiastical Latin all Greek words are pronounced as if they were Latin.

It's true, you hear the German influence in Benedict's spoken Latin. "Dee-o" instead of "Deh-o" or "Day-o" etc.

DarwinCatholic

As an old Classics major, I second the plug for Wheelock. Sure, it's dense as all get out, but it's as solid and comprehensive. You'll be able to start reading the Vulgate about ten chapters in, but push on through so you'll be able to deal with Latin fathers, Aquinas etc.

Also, in the dictionary department, the pocket size Collins Gem dictionary is surprisingly good for both classical and Church Latin. Short of questions that send you off to Liddle & Scott, it'll take care of things for you.

Jim

"This link provides a course with a book and tapes for learning latin as a living lanugage."

Latin cannot be learned as a living language. It is a dead language. It has no native speakers.

It's a wonderful language and, in my opinion, should be learned by all high school students who want to go on to higher education. But it is very surely a dead language.

Greek is alive, Hebrew once was dead but now lives, Syriac hangs on as a living language by a thread, but Latin is surely dead.

Liam

Well, koine Greek is dead.

In 1979, my first-year college Latin professor was expecting his first child. He and his wife -- also a classics professor -- determined to raise their firstborn with Latin as its mother tongue.

"Vale, mater! Vale, pater!"

We rolled our eyes. A sure case of child abuse in the Commonwealth of Virginia....

Sandra Miesel

Well, the great 20th C Renaissance scholar Paul Oskar Kristeller was raised from birth to speak Latin. It proved to be the foundation of his brilliant career. A goal to shoot for.

Jim

Kristeller was a native speaker of German. Biographies say he began his studies in Greek and Latin in elementary school.

Maureen

There are no "pure vowels". Every language has its own vowels, and its own singing-suitable versions of those vowels.

Singing in other languages in the "pure" vowels meant for Italian is just one of the many reasons that it's often impossible to make out the lyrics of songs sung by classical singers, or even the language which is being sung. It's not good singing; it's bad enunciation. Those who ignore and deliberately mispronounce the vowels in a language are spitting upon that language, not singing in it. If a singer can't find a way to keep tone in a language, it's the singer at fault, not the language.

Here's a linguistic chart of vowels; you can click to hear how each one sounds.
http://hctv.humnet.ucla.edu/departments/linguistics/VowelsandConsonants/course/chapter1/vowels.html

You can follow the links to find out a lot about vowel phonology.

Plato's Stepchild

From age six to nine, I attended a good public elementary school and learned in short time reading and writing in two scripts, Gothic and Roman, as well as arithmetic and other simple skills. From 1914 to 1923, I attended a public classical school, the Mommsen-Gymnasium in Berlin, which offered nine years of Latin (eight hours a week), eight years of French (four hours a week), six years of Greek (six hours a week), a great deal of German composition and literature, some history and geography, a good deal of mathematics (including elementary calculus), some physics, chemistry, and biology, and a year or two of English (which turned out to be my fifth language). I had to do a lot of homework, and I did not mind it, for I found the assignments interesting and challenging. I had some occasional difficulties and setbacks, but I basically liked and enjoyed my school. In all the languages which I studied, I learned grammar and parsing, instead of guessing the vague content of long sentences. In mathematics I learned precise reasoning since we were supposed to understand and repeat all proofs, solutions, and constructions, not just to memorize them. I learned to compose clear papers consisting of an introduction and a conclusion and of several well distinguished parts of which the first did not presuppose the second but vice versa, and I still write that way. In addition to some German and French classics (including Shakespeare in German), I read in school Vergil and Tacitus, Homer and Sophocles, authors who have remained my favorites throughout my later life. My teachers were for the most part well trained and knowledgeable, and they included such scholars as Walther Kranz and Ernst Hoffmann, well known among students of the classics and of ancient philosophy.

http://platostepchild.typepad.com/platos_stepchild/2005/06/_paul_oskar_kri.html

David Kubiak

I should also put in a plug for a very useful reader that has been put together to accompany Wheelock by a friend of mine called James May. He is now Dean of the Faculty at St. Olaf, which is a tribute to his many gifts, since he is a very outspoken conservative Catholic long attached to Msgr. Schluler's St. Agnes.

I've forgotten who publishes the reader, but I'm sure you could find it via Google.

Chris St. Jean

For my money, the best books out there are the Lingua Latina books by Hans Oerberg. You can find the books here.

In these books, one actually reads Latin and nothing but Latin, and what's more, one learns to think in Latin naturally.

Sandra Miesel

My goodness, I had no idea that mentioning Kriststeller would provoke such a reaction. The data given don't disprove the story I was told back in grad school when Prof Kriststeller addressed the history department, that his parents exposed him to spoken Latin from babyhood. Children easily absorb more than one language at a time.
Then you look at the program he describes and think what passes for "education" in America now.

Plato's Stepchild

Latin Stories Desined to Accompany Wheelock's Latin by Anne H. Groton and James M. May.

You should also check out James M. May and Jakob Wisse's new translation from OUP of Cicero On the Ideal Orator.

If James May is truly an outspoken Conservative Catholic, Plato's Stepchild is very interested...

Liam

My college course mentioned above also used the Lingua Latina series.

Ed the Roman

The Astérix et Obélix comics are also available in the Empire Romain (latin) version.

scotch meg

Hi,

If any of you are still responding, which of the above would be suitable for a VERY bright 4th grader with 2 years of basic Latin under his belt, aided by his homeschooling mom who is learning alongside him? I have a multilingual background (French, German, Russian), so the forms aren't difficult to understand and it's largely a matter of memorization for me, but I'm having trouble sorting out what reading to give my son...

Thanks!

scotch meg

Hi,

If any of you are still responding, which of the above would be suitable for a VERY bright 4th grader with 2 years of basic Latin under his belt, aided by his homeschooling mom who is learning alongside him? I have a multilingual background (French, German, Russian), so the forms aren't difficult to understand and it's largely a matter of memorization for me, but I'm having trouble sorting out what reading to give my son...

Thanks!

scotch meg

Hi,

If any of you are still responding, which of the above would be suitable for a VERY bright 4th grader with 2 years of basic Latin under his belt, aided by his homeschooling mom who is learning alongside him? I have a multilingual background (French, German, Russian), so the forms aren't difficult to understand and it's largely a matter of memorization for me, but I'm having trouble sorting out what reading to give my son...

Thanks!

michael

i'd like to be able to pray out-loud in Latin, but don't know how or where to go to learn it verbally. I already learned my Pater N. and Ava Maria from a brief article in Latin Mass Magazine a few years ago. I've never seen anything like it since.

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