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October 06, 2005
Radio Daze
...in a few minutes (1 Eastern, to be precise,) I'm going to be a guest on this show out of a public radio station in San Francisco. I think you can listen online.
I was initially told that the topic would be seminary visitation, but I see from the website it has now been transformed into, of course, the question of homosexuals in the priesthood. Sigh. Anyway, I was kind of nervous - and I'm never nervous about media, especially radio - about the set-up, but I just got a call saying that one of the other guests has been replaced by Fr. Michael Sweeney, co-founder, with Sherry Weddell, of the Siena Institute. That's better.
Okay, done. Boy was that awful - from my perspective. I can deal with not having time to make my point, but it's really hard when the babysitter let the baby take a morning nap and he's so not sleepy, so I'm walking around the house behind him, phone in hand, trying to listen and compose some thoughts.
Anyhoo. Look for that Purge, coming anytime to a diocese near you. As if. God bless Fr. Sweeney. He did a nice job. I think I was mostly just frantic and overheated.
Posted by Amy Welborn | Permalink
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just heard the show and Amy did a great job as did Fr Sweeney.
Posted by: SiliconValleySteve at Oct 6, 2005 1:10:42 PM
Amy, you did a very admirable job. It's hard to even have discussions with many of the LGBT "Catholics" considering the fact that they have such an immature and incomplete grasp of the true teaching of the Magisterium on human dignity.
And that host was pretty wretched... did you hear her ending thoughts on the discussion?
Posted by: chris at Oct 6, 2005 1:15:40 PM
Yeah, the host's windup, here paraphrased slightly, was classic:
The coming purge presents loyal catholics with a choice, a very difficult choice indeed for loyal lesbian-gay-bisexual-transgendered Catholics, many of whom have been or could be canonized saints under the old church, and who will now have to make a very difficult choice about whether to stay in a church that very possibly may have no place at all for LGBTs.
Posted by: James Englert at Oct 6, 2005 1:43:23 PM
wow, glad I missed the closing.
Posted by: SiliconValleySteve at Oct 6, 2005 1:46:30 PM
I thought the best part was when Amy's baby made some background "noise". The baby "spoke" more on the meaning of human life and dignity than anybody in the discussion.
Posted by: littlejohn at Oct 6, 2005 1:52:51 PM
Can someone give me an example of a Saint who is known to be "transgendered?"
Posted by: bosun3rd at Oct 6, 2005 1:56:39 PM
In fairness, the closing wasn't quite that bad. I was sort of mixing the Dignity person's comments with the host's. Though the host made a big deal out of the Archdiocese REFUSING! to send anybody to speak on the program. Too busy sharpening their knives, I guess.
During the program itself, the host did a fairly decent job of letting people talk, though she let clueless callers go on and on. The format is so problematic -- the Dignity person, whose facts were largely wrong, talks with equal authority as people in command of the facts. No time to set things straight though Amy and Fr Michael did the necessary work of suggesting that there might be other ways of thinking about the issues.
Posted by: James Englert at Oct 6, 2005 2:14:54 PM
What aggravated me was...
the Hindu caller trying to tell Catholics what their theology should be and then trying to characterize you as being spiritually deficient for not living up to his imposed standard and...
the Diginity representative giving a lame answer to the non-Catholic Christian caller who asked her why she remained in the Church if it was so unwelcoming for homosexuals. I believe her answer was "because its the church I grew up in". How pathetic. Never mind Truth, just do what you are comfortable doing.
Posted by: Nick at Oct 6, 2005 2:17:46 PM
Wow, an orthodox Catholic lay woman and and priest, both intelligent and articulate, on the same show. What a treat! (Where were the censors?)
Posted by: ed at Oct 6, 2005 2:26:04 PM
"Can someone give me an example of a Saint who is known to be "transgendered?""
Well, the Gnostic 'gospels' say that if Mary Magdalene is very very good, God might even turn her into a man! So she can go to Heaven! Just like a real human being and everything!
:)
Posted by: Maureen at Oct 6, 2005 2:53:31 PM
"Can someone give me an example of a Saint who is known to be "transgendered?"
Just ask Google (I dare you!).
Some material references St. Joan of Arc.
Here is a popular list circulating on the Web:
Transgendered Saints
Queer History's list of Transgendered saints Women who posed as men and became monks.
MEDIEVAL EUROPE AND ISLAM--SAINTS
*St Anastasia the Patrician
*St Anna/Euphemianos
*St Apollinaria/Dortheos
*St Athanasia of Antioch
*St Eugenia/Eugnios
*St Hilaria/Hilarion
*St Marina/Marinos
*St Marina (2)
*St Matrona/Babylas
*St. Pelagia/Pelagios
*St. Theodora/Theodorus
*St. Euphrosyne/Smaragdus
*St. Papula of Gaul
*St Thekla
*St Hildegonde of Neuss near Cologne
[all the above women dressed and lived as men, usually monks]
From Fordham (Jesuits...no surprise): The Transgendered Sexual Imagery of St. Theresa of Lisieux.
At the 7th Annual Conference of the Texas Medieval Association (1997) the following paper was presented:
"Transgendered Saints: Old English Euphrosyne and Eugenia"
Beth Crachiolo, University of Iowa
Paul Halsall of UNF and Fordham prepared an entire calendar of gay, lesbian, transgender saints.
Posted by: Zhou De-Ming at Oct 6, 2005 3:11:08 PM
So if my mom has a short haircut and dresses in blue jeans for the better part of her life, then she is "transgendered"? I don't think so.
Kind of like saying Christ was a commie, because he believed in sharing.
Isn't it one of the hallmarks of "queer theory" that being gay or straight is some kind of post-modern construct invented in the past century? Unless John Paul II's cohort of saints have some secrets we have yet to hear, I doubt that there are many LGBT saints throughout history.
Not that many didn't have sex.
Posted by: George at Oct 6, 2005 3:57:23 PM
Fr. Michael Sweeney is an incredible blessing to the Church (as are you Amy). I'm sorry that the server at work blocked my reception of the interview - it sounds like it would have been great to hear.
Posted by: Tim Ferguson at Oct 6, 2005 4:59:14 PM
I'm waiting for the radio station to update the Archive. So much for having a daily update by 2 p.m. Pacific. Grrr.
And I didn't realize that Fr. Fessio was on Fresh Air yesterday. Batting .000.
Posted by: Chris at Oct 6, 2005 5:52:57 PM
The Archive page isn't updated, but the link works:
http://yourcallradio.org/archive/100605.ram
listening now, heh, heh. Now we're at .500.
Posted by: Chris at Oct 6, 2005 5:57:42 PM
Disclaimer: Amy is my favorite blogger of all time, and Michael Sweeney is my favorite homilist of all time.
Sadly, then, I found this radio show -- which I just listened to from the archive for the full hour -- to be a total waste of time.
The format makes it impossible to discuss anything with the proper distinctions. It was very frustrating. I would say there are four huge distinctions that have almost never been made in the last two weeks of media discussion:
* The visitation is a different issue from the alleged document about homosexual seminarians.
* "Gay" (homosexually oriented or attracted) is different from "gay" (sexually active). And both are different from "gay" (publicly identifying yourself as a member of a minority group defined by its orientation and/or activity).
* A hypothetical ban on gay seminarians is different from banning gays already ordained, and different from banning gays from the formation programs for nuns / sisters / monks / brothers.
* Pedophilia is different from the abuse of teenagers.
None of these distictions were made on this radio show. Therefore most of the discussion involved people talking to each other while using the same words to mean different things.
Posted by: Lawrence King at Oct 6, 2005 6:05:56 PM
Amy,
Just now listening to the archive version (up to the first break). You are spot on! I loved your comment about not impugning your integrity by staying in a Church you don't support.
(Also nice to hear your actual voice after reading your words)
The moderator makes me wish that people who cover Catholicism, actually learned something about Church teaching and doctrine. They don't have to agree, but it would be nice if they could have at least an intellectual understanding.
Back to the radio...
Posted by: Mary Kay at Oct 6, 2005 7:32:00 PM
It takes a very special mind to look at Joan of Arc or Maid Marion and see a gay transvestite.
Posted by: Maureen at Oct 6, 2005 7:37:22 PM
The other thing is that "Debbie" has a male voice which speaks volumes.
Posted by: Mary Kay at Oct 6, 2005 7:38:43 PM
Having listened to the whole hour and actually having read previous posts, some thoughts:
Amy, you did not come across as frantic and overheated. Not at all. (I can show you "overheated" that would leave not even a glimmer of ambiguity.) My guess is that you were referring to the "um" moment. I think a large part of that is that "Debbie" has his/her line of comebacks ready, prepared and well practiced because it's a topic that apparently transcends all others.
Given that you kept your cool much better than I would have, if I can indulge in some 20-20 hindsight armchair quarterbacking, I think Lawrence hit the nail on the head, specifically that:
* The visitation is a different issue from the alleged document about homosexual seminarians.
* Pedophilia is different from the abuse of teenagers.
Actually, you and Fr. Sweeney did say that the visitation included many other aspects, but it was not received because the others wanted to talk about homosexuality (and make the Catholic Church wrong).
John(?) the forensic psychologist who called in did a really slick job. First off, if he represented the diocese, I wondered if he still had an official relationship with the diocese and if so, not ethical on his part to be calling into a talk show. (He commented that most priests still don't know the differences of pedophilia. Well, neither does anyone else who is not a mental health professional. My hope is that this sex abuse crisis results in more constructive action about sexual abuse across all segments of the population, not just Catholic clergy.)
Second, what he presented wasn't the whole picture. He talked about underage children when the diagnostic definition of pedophilia is whith prepubescent children. But then, the diagnostic definition of pedophilia has been changed several times in the past 12 years.
Anyway, that's my 2 cents for now.
Posted by: Mary Kay at Oct 6, 2005 8:58:13 PM
"Can someone give me an example of a Saint who is known to be "transgendered?"
Ah, everyone has forgotten the infamous Wilgefortis!
Although I would quibble with the concept of "LGBT saints" only because it is some what anachronistic to do so - like describing St. Edward the Confessor as "British," I agree with the broad point that was made.
"The other thing is that "Debbie" has a male voice which speaks volumes."
The executive director of Dignity is a very scary-looking trans named Debra Weill. By having her as its public face, it seems clear that Dignity doesn't have much interest in good PR techniques.
Posted by: Patrick Rothwell at Oct 6, 2005 10:00:08 PM
Wow.
You know, I don't think I ever would have used the adjective, "sanctimonious," in conjunction with the noun, "Hindu," but there's a first time for everything.
I wonder if anyone's mind has ever been changed as the result of a call-in radio program? The format just seems fraught with peril.
I thought you did a fine job.
Posted by: Anonymous Teacher Person at Oct 6, 2005 11:33:04 PM
Nice job, Amy. You and Fr. Michael both exuded wonderful sanity in the face of creeping exaggerations and misunderstanding.
I had some fun on Korrektiv (here) with Fr. Michael's admonition not to picture "a Vatican SWAT team."
Posted by: Jonathan Potter at Oct 7, 2005 10:24:30 PM
I actually enjoyed listening to the archive of the show. Here's a couple of observations:
* The host really wasn't interested in the visitiation per se, but rather just hijacking the topic into a salicious discussion of the so-called "gay witch hunt."
* Three guests were too many - Amy & Debbie would have been plenty -- and allowed more time for interaction between them.
* I myself am a former seminarian and made it through a time of "Goodbye Good Men" craziness in the Church. Whether there have ever been GLBT saints or priests is immaterial. We all know of priests that are alcoholics, I know a number of priests that are verbally abusive and cruel to those around them. I know of priests (both "straight" and "gay") that violate their promises of celibacy. The very purpose of seminary formation is to mold men in the way of our Lord Jesus Christ. Formation is a time to reject candidates that possess unhealthy sexual, anger and alcohol problems from ministry in the Church. These problems become amplified over time and more often than not, are acted out in various detrimental ways in the face of stress. And to be a priest today is to embrace a life-style with plenty of stress.
* The most important thing mentioned in the entire hour was Amy's comment that the Church isn't doing a good job of eliminating ANYONE from priestly ministry, or from the future exercise of it. Seminaries & bishops alike need to be much more diligent about removing those who never belonged in the ministry in the first place. To make a mistake is human, but to ignore dealing with it infuriates the people whom you have been trusted to care for.
* A slight bit of common-sense might be in order around this whole so-called "gay" seminarian issue: a recovering alcoholic doesn't take a job as a bartender precisely because the constant temptation that he would face. If a man is sexually attracted to other men, the priesthood will only be a life of constant temptation and down-right foolishness - why put yourself in a state of continuous near occasion of sin?
Amy, I think you did quite well all things considered. And I enjoyed hearing the baby, too. The Psalmist reminds us to "make a joyful noise unto the Lord!"
Posted by: Deacon Chris at Oct 8, 2005 1:05:12 AM
