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November 28, 2005

Comments

Liz

“They can be born breathing and crying at 19 weeks’ gestation,” he [Stuart Campbell, former professor of obstetrics and gynaecology at St George’s hospital, London] said. “I am not anti-abortion, but as far as I am concerned this is sub-standard medicine.”

Nope he’s definitely not anti-abortion! Are there people who can read this article without being totally sickened?

Kathleen

"The number of terminations carried out in the 18th week of pregnancy or later has risen from 5,166 in 1994 to 7,432 last year. Prenatal diagnosis for conditions such as Down’s syndrome is increasing and foetuses with the condition are routinely aborted, even though many might be capable of leading fulfilling lives."

That is sickening all by itself, but I just can't imagine a human being looking at an 18 week old baby struggling for breath and not doing anything to save it. I just can't imagine it.

Michelle K.

"Doctors are increasingly uneasy about aborting babies who could be born alive."

Gee, how compassionate of them

Courts

Pro-choicers aren't defending half-ass medical practices any more than all anti-choicers are defending clinic bombings. It's a shame that a whole 50 abortions a year (out of countless successful abortions, births, mortalities, etc, etc) don't go as planned. Of course it's a shame and it's sickening. But it's also sickening that there are millions of dying, starving children in this world that are being refused help. It's sickening that pre-natal and family planning care is being denied to mothers throughout the United States. It's disgusting that people are under the illusion that making safe abortions illegal will make the world a better place. Wake up, people. You're no more perfect than the next sinner.

amy

Wow...thanks Courts. We're all ready to donate to the next "Pro-Choicers Help Starving Children" charity we see.

Cranky Lawyer

Amy--

Might I suggest you shut down comments on this thread? I think Courts' comments will ignite a firestorm no one needs during this first week of Advent.

Of course, I could just avert my eyes...

Kathleen

With all due respect to Cranky, Amy I suggest you keep them open.

The argument put forth by Courts is the argument of pro-choicers that most drives me crazy.

From my observation, faithful Catholics are far more generous than the 'everybody is a sinner and the church needs to modernize' type.

David R.

It is unreasonable to demand that we have heaven on earth before we outlaw abortion. We certainly don't repeal laws against child prostitution because the anti-child prostitution crowd has not discovered a cure for cancer.

Lynn

I'm with Cranky Lawyer on this one. No way to start Advent.

paul

I'm with Kathleen on this one. This week in particular is the darkest of the Advent weeks - just read the Liturgy of the Hour readings from Isaiah. If ever there is a time to see into the darkness of our fellow human beings, this is it.

Al

Courts may have been responding specifically to Amy's "Just remember, pro-choicers. Repeat after me. This is what I'm defending. This is what I'm defending."

Doesn't seem especially "season of Advent" charitable to at least one observer.

Delance

I don't think it's charitable to the millions of unborn being murdered to forget the subject. In fact, Amy was very charitable by calling them by euphemistic "pro-choice".

Courts' arguments are shallow as pro-abortion arguments always are. "Since the world is not perfect and bad things happen, we should make XXX legal." and "since you are not perfect, you should let other people do XXX". There's no correlation, no logic, it means nothing, it serves no other purpose than to make pro-abortionists feel less bad about themselves.

One way to forever end illegal XXX is to make it legal. It’s not very smart reasoning.

Fr Joseph Huneycutt

With all due respect, Advent is not a time where we are called to be holier than other times of the year. The Devil don't take no break at Advent. The War of Souls continues. "I would have fought the good fight, Lord, but, as You know, it was Advent."

As you were.

Dennis_Mahon

Pro-choicers aren't defending half-ass medical practices any more than all anti-choicers are defending clinic bombings.

So when, exactly, will we see a denunciation of this practice by Planned Parenthood International?

Al

Amen to that, Fr. Huneycutt.

Donald R. McClarey

"It's disgusting that people are under the illusion that making safe abortions illegal will make the world a better place."

It will certainly make it a better and safer place for those children who would not be aborted.

Amy's observation was right on the money. The "right to choose" means the right to a dead baby. The abortion survivors bring this home with shocking clarity. Bravo, Amy! This is the perfect way to begin Advent, speaking out for defenseless children in the womb!

Paul Scheibmeir

Funny how the "pro-choice" crowd gets to tar and feather those who have a problem with killing unborn babies by bringing up the fact that people are dying and starving....then they get to completely ignore or dismiss the unpleasantries associated with their enlightened position on the issue.

Funny indeed.

If I may, I would like to pile on as well.

*ahem*

Just remember, pro-choicers. Repeat after me. This is what I'm defending. This is what I'm defending. This is what I'm defending. This is what I'm defending. This is what I'm defending.

George C.

> One way to forever end illegal XXX is to
> make it legal. It’s not very smart reasoning.

Actually it is. Throughout the world, abortion (and especially the execution-style aborting of fetuses) flourishes even when it is illegal. Look at the high abortion and low birth rates in countries like Poland, Mexico and Brazil where abortion is completely illegal.

By allowing it to remain legal, we are able to read and share articles like this, and make our case persistently and thoughtfully in an open society, that this fetus, and the fifty or so like him or her in the U.K.(along with thousands around the world) should be treated no differently than other newborns, and should not be discarded as detrius.

But the culture wars are more fun. The scientific consensus (which I consider wrong!)is that fetuses between 18-24 weeks are 1) not conscious and 2) feel no pain. Therefore, some people consider a fetus as having no rights. That is not murder. Rather it is a BIG misunderstanding.

Finally, it is worth noting that as Catholics we are called to protect the unborn life of embryos. In other words, the child-like qualities of a fetus are not necessary for us to understanding embryonic life as worthy of saving. And even we acknowledge that an early embryo is unlikely to 1) have consciousness and 2) feel pain.

Judy

"The greatness of a person does not depend on size, for the newborn King is very small. Let us pray for an end to prejudice against the tiny babies threatened by abortion."

(from Fr. Frank Pavone's Pro-Life Meditations on the Mysteries of the Rosary - the Third Joyful Mystery, The Nativity)

carrie ryckman

One summer while working on my MPH, I worked on a infant mortality research project. I had to research all the infant deaths and if any of the mothers had received care from the county. I saw at least 5 infant birth and death certificates from infants who survived the abortion, but then died soon after. This was for one year in one large county. Most of them were Down Syndrome babies and around 18-21 weeks gestation. Just multiply that by each county/year and the number is much more than anyone would believe.

Lynn

You are right Father Huneycutt. Advent is no time to ignore the tremendous threat to human life in our society and the need to the vulnerable.

My objection was not to discussing this vital issue, but I presonally have a problem when the topic degenerates into snide remarks/name-calling on the comments boxes.

Perhaps I will give up reading blogs/comments for Advent and spend more time praying for unborn children and supporting our parish Respect Life Christmas activities.

Lynn

that's "our need to protect defend the vulnerable."

Liz

George C,

"Actually it is. Throughout the world, abortion (and especially the execution-style aborting of fetuses) flourishes even when it is illegal. Look at the high abortion and low birth rates in countries like Poland, Mexico and Brazil where abortion is completely illegal."

Would you care to share your sources for these statistics, George?

I've seen credible statistics on the number of botched illegal abortions in the US based on autopsy records of women of childbearing age. I'm not sure how you could get anything but wild estimates on the number of illegal abortions in any given country, other than by using some pretty creative statistical math.

Patricio Acevedo

From third world country, with restrictive abortion law: Chile. We have no back alley abortion problem. I should know, since I'm a prosecution attorney.
We have abortions yes, but it is a very rare crime and certainly not a significative source of woman deaths. Every time a fetus is found in a dumpster (1 or 2 times a year), it is big news, so uncommon it is, and I don't remember any recent news story about woman found dead for abortions.
Most unwanted pregnancies in Chile are among the poor, but there are many foundations working to help the mother and her child.
My point is Chile's experience with a restrictive abortion law demonstrate that poverty and back alley abortions are just excuses, to keep abortion legal.

Fr Joseph Huneycutt

Lynn, I understand, believe me. My point, perhaps poorly put, is that Advent -- while it may be best for one's personal struggle to stay away from the Net & Comments at this time -- should not be seen in a different light than any other season or day ... when it comes to "regular ol' spiritual warfare." True, the prayers, preparations and "feel" is different during this holy season. But it's still just another day outside Paradise among sinners, n'cest pas? As always, God is with us.

(We should, of course, always exercise Christian love and charity.)

Lynn

I couldn't agree more, Fr Huneycutt; thanks!

meteorologist

Can anyone explain to me why doctors are reluctant to give the potassium chloride injection? "Sure, I'll rip you from your mother's womb, but, No, not the injection." I'm having trouble following that logic.

Nerina

"Can anyone explain to me why doctors are reluctant to give the potassium chloride injection? "

I wondered the same thing, Meteorologist. But then I noticed in the article that many practitioners are simply not skilled enough in the method. I assume that there is a higher risk of affecting the mother if the KCl is misadministered.

Tom Harmon

Mr. Mahon's comment is interesting:

"So when, exactly, will we see a denunciation of this practice by Planned Parenthood International?"

Every major pro-life organization condemns clinic bombings. Where is Planned Parenthood on this horrible practice? NARAL? NOW?

Liz

"Doctors are increasingly uneasy about aborting babies who could be born alive. “If viability is the basis on which they set the 24-week limit for abortion, then the simplest answer is to change the law and reduce the upper limit to 18 weeks,” said Campbell, who last year published a book showing images of foetuses’ facial expressions and “walking” movements taken with a form of 3-D ultrasound."

While it won't end abortion in every case, a law lowering the age of fetal viability would save some pre-born people. And maybe that's a tiny glimmer of hope. I've heard talk of this in the in some U.S. states where the PBA Ban has been overturned by the courts. It's not a entire solution, but it's a start.

Preggie Jose

Actually if its downs babies lowering the age wont save a one. You can have fairly late term abortions over there for reasons like that. elective abortions might be less but not the disabled babies.

Tom Haessler

I'd like to expand a bit on Fr. Honeycutt's point about spiritual warfare a bit. Our enemies are not "flesh and blood" [pro-abortion activists], but "the spiritual rulers of this world of darkness." I think that minimally this means that spiritual blindness even about something as basic as the sacredness of human life can be so worked into the warp and woof of significant zones of human culture (academia, the "churches", the media) that individual human beings can be blinded to the truth without necessarily their full freedom being engaged. We can, perhaps, think of it as analogous to a case of possession (in the strict sense). The saintly Fr. Surin was possessed for the sake of his own and others' souls. He had many blasphemous thoughts, "despaired" of his own eternal salvation, and all sorts of other unpleasant things. But HE was not engaged in all this. What the New Testament means by "principalities and powers" is the power of something like ideology (in this case "pro-choice" - the demonic corrupts even language and understanding of the purpose of freedom) to "possess" (as it were) whole zones of public life and discourse. Some who are caught up in this "possession" have never fully attended to the horror. This aspect of their lives is not deeply examined. "It comes with the territory." I'm not, of course, denying free will or personal responsibility. But I am saying that this awesome power of our own freedom operates in a complex network of determinisms and suggestions (some of them beyond the human). So our "enemies" are not the people, but the demons. Something like that. This is an argument, not for anemic rhetoric that refuses to unmask the horror, but for civil discourse that speaks to the horror without judgeing (something that we're just not equipped to do) the issue of subjective imputability of the people who are the conduits of the culture of death.

Tom Haessler

Fr Joseph Huneycutt

Thanks, Tom. When it comes to fasting, there's a saying in Orthdoxy: "We've stopped eating meat and starting eating each other."

May God grant us peace (in the midst of all), as we prepare for the greatest pro-life Feast: the Nativity in the Flesh of the God-Man.

Mary Ruebelmann-Benavides

An interesting side note to this discussion: The brilliant doctor who came up with injecting potassium chloride into unborn children to ensure their deaths is Dr. Nelson Isada who now works at the Catholic Providence Hospital here in Anchorage.

Katia

Ah, so many Christians so few lions. If you are against abortion, than don't have one. Let the rest of us decide for ourselves. Just remember, Catholics aren't perfect they just want you to be.

Thomas the Tank Engine

Katia,

You offer an interesting perspective on how to debate with stereotypes. When you're ready for a more open and challenging dialog, try again.

That you wish death upon those you disagree with is creepy.

Regards,
Thomas the Tank Engine

Gordon

Thomas,

Katia is consistent in her death-ethic. The barbaric slaughter of a pro-lifer is the same as the barbaric slaughter of those who fail to submit to the god of Self or the roman god of Jupiter. That we are little more than cat food shows the chilling unegalitarianism and illiberalism of the pro-abort crowd.

Do you suspect she has a bumpter sticker that says "Mean People Suck" That irony is tickling -- as long as they don't have a critical mass.

Unimpressed

I've got a better idea, Katia. If you are against getting pregnant, don't sleep around. If you don't like the consequences of something, don't engage in actions that would bring about said consequences. It's really a very simple concept that I'm sure even you can grasp.

Mary Ruebelmann-Benavides

Katia:
We do not pretend to be perfect at all. I know I am a hyprocrite, hence the reason I go to church. I am in need of a Savior in a big way. But our lack of saintliness should in no way justify the execution of a tiny human being merely because that tiny human was not planned. Give me a break. Get a better argument. If you have had an abortion, the best place to go to Reconciliation where Jesus is always willing for you to repent and recieve his forgiveness.

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