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November 09, 2005

Vows

Finally.

I read this book about a month ago, and have been meaning to blog on it since - but doing so would require the kind of thought that is hard for me to come by these days. However - here we are, chapter 3 of the novel wrapped up for the day, baby a-napping on the couch next to me (he was asleep when I put him down, then immediately woke up. I ordered him, "Go night-night!" and after a few minutes, without a cry, he did...), birds going crazy at the feeder outside the window - the last time they did this was Saturday, and we know what happened Saturday night - and leaves pouring down from the trees in the wind.  So, let's give it a shot.

Vows: The Story of a Priest, a Nun and Their Son by Peter Manseau (linked on the right sidebar) is a fascinating book on a lot of levels, is evocative and thought-provoking. Short synopsis: Manseau's father was ordained a priest for the Archdiocese of Boston in 1961. His mother took vows, as Sister Thomas Patrick of the Sisters of St. Joseph, in 1958. The met working among the poor in Roxbury, and ended up marrying in 1969.

Here is what I liked about this book: it is, in essence, about what motivates our decisions and our life choices. That's the bigger tale here. Why did Bill Manseau want to be a priest? What external factors moved him in that direction? And Mary? Why did she become a religious sister? And Peter? What in the world led him to the point where he is at St. Joseph's Abbey in Spencer, Massachusetts, contemplating embracing a life of celibacy decades after his own father had left it?

On another level, it is, in a humorous and bittersweet way, about the struggles all of us who are deeply involved in religion, especially professionally, face, in terms of family life, and our fears in that regard. The PK is notorious, and even those in Roman Catholicism who can't be P's, therefore can't have PK's, worry - When I was in parish ministry as a DRE, I was so wary that my children would come to associate Church which something that absorbed their mother's time, and nothing else - since most of a DRE's work is on weekends, and in the evenings, it was a legitimate concern. Which is why I got out of it, and why I watch couples who can do this successfully - I've known two couples who were DRE/Youth Minister teams, and they were all just incredibly healthy and balanced, and as far as I know, their children are all still practicing, happy Catholics. Something to admire.

But back to the book - Bill Manseau was a part of a community of, for lack of a better term, ex-priests (one I am loathe to use because, you know, tu es sacredos in aeternam) in Boston in the 70's and beyond, and Peter is sharp in his narrative of the gatherings at the home in which one of them would say Mass, what that was like for the children, and so on. What is amusing in the book is that Mary Manseau put up with her husband's activism, but was not, to say the least, enthusiastic about it. There were even times when she would pack up the children after one of the ex-priests' gatherings, and take them to the parish down the street for Mass.

Into all of this, three children are born, and Peter picks up the thread of his own relationship to the Church - initially enthusiastic and devout, then rebellious and finally, via Buddhism, once again open - open to the point that he seriously considered religious life. The trajectory is fascinating - the parents, "liberal Catholics," had communicated their faith the best they could, and eventually, the son puts the pieces back together for himself.

There's more, though, and this is difficult to talk about without ruining some of the inherent drama of the book. Let us just say that the factors that move people to enter religious life, and the particular religious life they do, are odd and can even be evil. Facing those factors honestly can take almost a lifetime, and are a caution to any of us to both more acute self-awareness, and against the abrupt judgment of others. So for that reason, any discussion of this book on this thread isn't going to entertain comments about the Manseau's decisions to leave active ministry except from those who have read the book - for those are crucial points.

One final point - in a way, this book began the process of clearing up a little mystery for me. Long time readers know that one of the great mysteries for me, intellectually, is how things, to put it bluntly, went to hell so fast for the American Catholic Church. Really, from 1965-1968 was the sea change. I have never understood this - how people who were trained in the pre-Vatican II Church, renowned for strictness and obedience, could, in a matter of three years, be presiding at Clown Masses, to use the overused metaphor.

Reading the accounts of the formation that both the Manseaus received...I began to get it. What they experienced was, in essence, vocation factories. Hundreds of years of seminary and religious life formation and training distilled into manuals and schedules. Bill Manseau started to think a little differently about things when, working in the seminary library, he began to read theological journals, works which seminarians were at the very least, not encouraged to read, if not outright forbidden. Congar, von Balthasar, etc...It makes sense to me now that when you combine a rapidly changing culture that emphasized freedom, a Church tentatively opening itself to that, and then a batch of religious who had been discouraged from thinking for themselves and who had lived under obedience in decidedly unhealthy ways - read the note Bill Manseau preserved, from a fellow seminarian, explaining why he could not accept Bill's invitation to walk with him on the weekly walk for which they could choose one friend (never the same friend, of course) - it reads as if my 14 year old daughter had written it, albeit in more elevated language.

Some of us yearn for the good old days, and see them come back to life in some more "orthodox" seminaries. I think that it's safe to say that much of the life and topics of study and reading in today's orthodox seminaries would been forbidden and off limits in most of your regular diocesan seminaries in the good old days.

In the end, I appreciated this book for a lot of reasons - I was moved and sometimes entertained by the portrait of his parents' marriage, as two very different people struggle to grow together despite their rather different expectations of their relationship to the Church and their faith. However, what gave me the most to contemplate was the question I raised at the beginning - why do we do what we do? How do parents impact their children's life of faith? What ironies abound in all of our lives...truly.

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Comments

Some of us yearn for the good old days, and see them come back to life in some more "orthodox" seminaries.

I'm not certain if that's an entirely accurate or just encapsulation of the very cnoservative/traditional viewpoint. For one thing, many of us don't remember the good old days or were even alive for them. It's not so much that we miss what he had then, but that we don't see what we have now as being so wonderful.

With that as a given, we gravitate towards certain externals and traditions that appeared vibrant from the past, but don't expect and don't want an entire repeat of some bygone time. We want to make the Church better, and the Faith more integral to the lives of Catholics. Just picking up and moving the 50's couldn't do that. After all, the 50's unchanged would only lead to the '60s again.

Posted by: Der Tommissar at Nov 9, 2005 3:08:20 PM

Amy,

I too read the book but from the perspective of one who lived in the Archdiocese in the '50's and is now active as a permanent deacon in parish ministry.

I could identify, as I entered the diaconate training program with Manseau's conjoining of the sacraments of marriage and ordination.

Evidently, Manseau elder still believes the two are to be lived simultaneously.

...... Manseau younger writes about his father’s own writings, in July of 1968, “ … O Father, deep within my being I feel a call to follow you in a new way – trusting beyond knowledge that it is right – it is so insistent – Lord Jesus, accomplish your will in me. Whatever it may be. I am bewildered as to which course to follow…” p. 192

Earlier, Manseau elder had said that “ …I had come to a junction in my life … when I really felt that in order to be faithful to the Gospel, I should enter into the deepest relationship possible for a Christian, marriage…” p. 191

The book does challenge the standard stance on sacramental life.

Mike Iwanowicz

Posted by: mike iwanowicz at Nov 9, 2005 3:09:46 PM

Well, he does, and he resolutely rejects laicization for that reason. Which confuses the Archdiocesan officials no end.

Posted by: amy at Nov 9, 2005 3:11:29 PM

I am clueless. PK's may be notorious, but I am unable to figure out what the letters stand for. P must be priest....those who can't be P, ie women, you...DRE....you worry about your children...priests children....???? Are there enough x priests with children for them to be notorious? and children doesn't fit...oh, KIDS. OK, priest's kids, ie laicized priest's kids.... I didn't know they were notorious or that there were enough of them to be considered as a class.

In which case,it occurs to me that even if you as a W can't be a P,but only someone heavily involved in the Catholic scene, you do have two PK's, no? Which is why you have heard of the term.

(Honestly I don't think you need to worry any more than the rest of us, and less than some of us, myself included.)

I'd like to read this book.

God bless,
Susan

Posted by: Susan Peterson at Nov 9, 2005 3:52:10 PM

PK has traditionally stood for "Preacher's Kid" - and their notoriety in protestant churches knows no end. Using the term, in an analagous way to apply to the children of anyone heavily involved in the church - be they DRE's, liturgists, activists, choir directors, formerly active priests, deacons - is just a helpful cooption of a term that paints a vivid picture.

Posted by: Tim Ferguson at Nov 9, 2005 4:00:03 PM

Thanks Susan for decoding PK's which I was about to ask.

I'd love to know what the Church actually teaches about vows and ordination and later marriage. I know what lots of Catholics believe about it but I don't know that such belief is well grounded in true doctrine (I suppose much the same could be said of popular catholic belief in the 1950's).

What I've been able to figure out is that the Holy Father has dispensed many vows allowing priests and nuns to marry (the power to bind and loose granted to St Peter) and that the sacrament of Holy Orders is permanent (ie once a priest always a priest).

God Bless

Posted by: Chris Sullivan at Nov 9, 2005 4:09:10 PM

As you alluded to the "good ol' days" weren't always so good. Much of the groundwork for the dissenting preists, nuns, and laity was laid in the 40s and 50s, and to a degree earlier. Externally everything seemed "normal". Church attendence was high, seminaries were full, and even Fortune Magazine in the early 50s recognized that the Catholic Church was one of the best run orginzations in the world.

But it was within this period that many of clergy who would create so much trouble later on were educated and ordained. Prehaps it was the success of the Church in America that created an impression that the "old ways" are no longer needed.

Manseau's book does point to a problem in vocation discernment. This has been going on for decades. I remember reading the biography of Vince Lombardi. He grew up in an old Italien New York city neighborhood during the 1st half of the century. He attended a Latin High School where most of the boys were expected to go into the preisthood. During his senior year he told the school's chaplain of his plans. The Priest told him that every mother and grandmother expected thier sons to go into the vocations. He gently told Vince that only a few of the 100 or so boys in his class would be happy as priests. Vince took his advice and atteneded Fordham instead of the seminary. How many of his classmates I wonder regretted thier choice later on?

Posted by: JP at Nov 9, 2005 4:39:20 PM

As you alluded to the "good ol' days" weren't always so good. Much of the groundwork for the dissenting preists, nuns, and laity was laid in the 40s and 50s, and to a degree earlier. Externally everything seemed "normal". Church attendence was high, seminaries were full, and even Fortune Magazine in the early 50s recognized that the Catholic Church was one of the best run orginzations in the world.

But it was within this period that many of clergy who would create so much trouble later on were educated and ordained. Prehaps it was the success of the Church in America that created an impression that the "old ways" are no longer needed.

Manseau's book does point to a problem in vocation discernment. This has been going on for decades. I remember reading the biography of Vince Lombardi. He grew up in an old Italien New York city neighborhood during the 1st half of the century. He attended a Latin High School where most of the boys were expected to go into the preisthood. During his senior year he told the school's chaplain of his plans. The Priest told him that every mother and grandmother expected thier sons to go into the vocations. He gently told Vince that only a few of the 100 or so boys in his class would be happy as priests. Vince took his advice and atteneded Fordham instead of the seminary. How many of his classmates I wonder regretted thier choice later on?

Posted by: JP at Nov 9, 2005 4:40:18 PM

Amy, I think the answer to the question about how parents impact the faith life of their children may seem like a crap shoot at times. But I think children who see their parents persevere and muddle through seemingly imperfect situations (don't we all have imperfect faith situations?), I think the children will recognize that there must be something of value in faith and perseverence in and of itself that is worth piecing together the faith for themselves. In the end, the faith of the children may not come close to resembling the faith of the parents.

I can see that in my own family lineage. My Irish-German grandmother's faith is one of unquestioned obedience. It's "yes father" all the way. What is interesting to me is the faith of my mom and her six siblings. They are of the same generation of the Manseaus (with a married laicized priest in the bunch). To a person, they all carry some anger toward the Church as if something valuable was taken away from them by the Church. My mom does have some tangible ground upon which to be angry -- after my father divorced my mom to marry his mistress, my mom moved us back to her hometown. When she tried to enroll me and my sister in the Catholic school she attended (and the parish in which I was baptized), my grandmother attended, and my great-grandmother attended, she was told by the new pastor that the school was full. She knew that was an outright lie (my mom was best friends with the first and fourth grade teachers -- priests should never lie in small towns where families and friends go back several generations) but the pastor did not want children of a divorcee in his school. The other parish in town fortunately would take us in their school. And the rest is history.

The feeling I get from my aunts and uncles about their anger is that they feel lied to by the nuns and priests. I get a sense of this anger from many people who came of age in the 50's and early 60's. Most of this anger is directed to towards an undefined repression. I get a sense from a lot of people who grew up at this time and went through the Catholic system, repression of the Church seems to be a major theme.

Despite the fact that my mom and I have different theological opinions, I attribute my own growth in the faith from my mom's sticking with the Church despite her own anger and frustrations toward the Church. I am positive if she just quit the Church back in 1970 because of some jerk pastor, I would be a million miles away from the Church and possibly my own salvation.

Posted by: Badly Drawn Catholic at Nov 9, 2005 4:41:07 PM

I understood that Pope Paul gave dispensations from vows for many but that JPII was very reluctant to do this. There is a story that he was handed a sheaf of applications for laicization and ripped it in two, saying angrily, They have broken their vows!
However it seems that he must have granted some as there are laicized priests of an age that one can hardly imagine that they were laicized before his pontificate.
I believe, and feel sure that it is true, that if one is dispensed from vows and returns to the lay state, he can marry validly. He remains a priest, of course, since this is a sacrament which imparts a character to the soul, but he is forbidden to function as a priest except that he could hear a confession and absolve if someone were in danger of death and no other priest were available. As for what will happen to him eternally for breaking a vow...that is left up to God. People who divorce also break a vow, after all, and we don't think they are necessarily damned for it.
We trust that God knows our weaknesses, the wrong reasons for which we might have married or gone ahead with an ordination etc etc, and we trust in His mercy.

I remember a man I knew briefly as a Jesuit -he was working in a housing ministry in Baltimore and helped us get our first house-who then left and married.(also an ex-nun, I am almost sure.) I remember when he started to tell me that sometimes he still celebrated mass, for a few friends...I think he was going to ask me if I wanted to attend, but saw the look on my face and didn't.

I remember how I asked him how things were going, when their baby was maybe a year old. He said..Well, with the baby..and working...she's so tired all the time... and I thought, ah, all is not bliss after all. I also remember that he stopped going to mass for a while, and I, a Catholic of perhaps 3 or 4 years standing at that time, took it on myself to admonish him, just by saying Oh V- you don't want to do that! At that time he said that I would have to go to daily mass for years before I would ever catch up to him. But some months later I met him on the steps of the church, around 4:30 PM on a Saturday, and he said, Oh, Susan,...I've come back...and I told Jesus I am sorry.

I don't know what has become of him. He was much older than I, and I am 55 now. His baby could have children by now, probably does.
Well, Lord, hear my prayer for him, wherever he is, in this world or the next.

Susan Peterson

Posted by: Susan Peterson at Nov 9, 2005 4:44:59 PM

Badly Drawn Catholic,

I noticed too that the repression theme is constant with alot of babyboomers. My father grew up in a Catholic family during the depression, and his impressions are quite different from his youngest brother who came of age in the late 50s, and early 60s. They both attened the same schools, but his youngest brother attended Notre Dame. I don't know if the expectations were different during the 50s or 60s, or was pop culture already making a marked impression?

Posted by: JP at Nov 9, 2005 5:01:25 PM

If I may be allowed a small aside here...Between Der Tommisar's intial comment, and the subsequent discussion, I think we have struck upon something that is key to any discussion of the renewal of tradition.

The debate is often framed as a choice between bringing the 50s back, and leaving our current circumstances intact. If our only choices are the status quo 1955, and the status quo 2005, then I say neither is acceptable, since each period gets some things wrong, each period gets some things right, and there are good things whose restoration has been called for that are not manifest in either period.

Now, there is disagreement over how much of 1955, how much of 2005, and how much of other things is appropriate; still, the issue is not, or at least should not be, one of turning the clock back. Rather, the issue is one of living in the fullness of tradition, while simultaneously communicating that tradition to our own time, and enriching the tradition with new and harmonious elements.

Posted by: Nicholas at Nov 9, 2005 5:04:08 PM

There's a story that Pope Paul used to pray for forgiveness as he dispensed vows, as if he wasn't entirely sure he was doing the right thing.

I think there are vows which, for human weakness or bad choices or difficult situations, people are unable to keep. God doesn't expect anyone to keep vows that they are unable to keep.

I was reminded of Wednesday's gospel (or would have been but for the Lateran Church Feast) about not making lepers of people ie excluding them from the community for their various diseases or failings. This seems to have been a major failing of the Catholic recent past, the repercussions of which are still very much with us.

God Bless

Posted by: Chris Sullivan at Nov 9, 2005 5:13:56 PM

Isn't a distinction made between a promise and a vow. IOW, a diocesan Priest makes a promise to remain celibate, because such is the discipline in force, whereas a religious Priest makes a vow, not because of any discipline, but because celibacy is intrinsic to the religious life?

Posted by: Jason at Nov 9, 2005 5:18:29 PM

I grew up in A church of the 1950s. I use the term "A" because others of my generation very possibly had a different experience. Mine was in a small midwestern town, heavily Irish and German Catholic.

It was a cultural church of memorization, rote observation, rules and a heavy emphasis on obligation and mortal sin. Not attending weekly confession was almost treated as a mortal sin in and of itself.

Mariolotry was rampant (she was almost treated as the 1st person of the Trinity) and mass attendance was usually an exercise in mute observation. Sermons were banal and the music was even worse! Participation was boisterously reserved for Benediction.

It was only when I got away from that and started to study my faith that I realized that I was well trained in obedience, but that was about it.

I began my journey away from that church, through a variety of difference Catholic and other religious experiences, and gradually about half returning to Catholicism in the very late 1960s. Yes, I am very carefully choosing what I will assent to and what I won't. I am willing to take my chances on my choices and am prepared to face my God when it is time to began my new journey. I do so without a sense of dread and fear; just hope. Hope was soemthing learned AFTER I began my journey, not before.

As I said, others of my generation probably have similar or different experiences. I'm sure that is true today with those of you who are much younger than I and have different experiences during your childhood and young adult lives.

Posted by: Jimmy Mac at Nov 9, 2005 5:22:18 PM

I think it might be more a case of needing to understand where those people came from who became rebels and "liberal Catholics" in the sixties came from.

I once went to some kind of home mission type thing led by that (at least then, in the early 70's) rare bird,a liberal Redemptorist. He seemed old to me then; he had grey hair; maybe he was the age I am now? He railed against the over emphasis on sexual sin and I think pointed to all the heavy guilt people had had to deal with over the well nigh universal practice of masturbation. He also said something to the effect that the only thing we actually had to believe was the core of the faith, the Nicene Creed. I was very upset, so upset that I was fighting tears, and managed to squeak out of my closed throat, that there was a lot more to the Catholic faith, a lot more we "had to" believe, besides the Nicene Creed. The hostess of the group was upset and horrified...not at what the priest had said but that there had been conflict, people had disagreed, directly contradicted one another, in fact, someone had directly contradicted a priest. She basically said the groups should be stopped if they led to such a thing happening, an attitude which totally astounded me. Later, a somewhat younger Redemptorist, just reminiscing, told me about his preVatican II seminary days, the use of fathers of the Church as proof texts for various doctrines without quoting them in context, the trouble he got into for citing quotes to a different effect from the same Father, as well as things like the group practice of the discipline and other details. Thinking of this I realized that Fr. X did not have my experience of coming to the Church as a place of life, hope, and rescue from the lost world of meaninglessness and meaningless sex. He had an experience of intellectual repression and excessive sexual guilt, which there was no way I could really share. It didn't make what he said true, but it changed my idea about him as a person; I no longer saw him as someone wantonly trying to destroy all that was good and true. I made a point of talking to him, on the sidewalk in front of the church one day, just saying that I had thought about it and realized that he came from a different set of experiences, that I hadn't had the ones he had. What he took from this comment I don't know, although he nodded appreciatively, I thought.

So it isn't to say, some want to return to the 50's with all its faults, and those who don't therefore embrace all the faults of today. It is an exercise in understanding where the situation today comes from. And understanding some of our fellow Catholics who don't see things as we do.


Susan Peterson

Posted by: Susan Peterson at Nov 9, 2005 5:34:30 PM

Dante had the oath breakers in the first circle of hell, eternally blown by strong winds so that they could never find a resting place. I don't agree that such folks can never find forgiveness, but I do think that they need to consider their situation.

A marriage vow is just as serious as the vow of a religious, and is in many cases broken with little compunction by faithless spouses blown by the winds of desire.

Hey Jimmy Mack, why don't you hurry back?;)

Posted by: Touchy Technician at Nov 9, 2005 5:42:40 PM

Amy wrote: “... [O]ne of the great mysteries for me, intellectually, is how things, to put it bluntly, went to hell so fast for the American Catholic Church. Really, from 1965-1968 was the sea change. ...”

I was a teenager during those years and very involved in the Church. My own view is that things did not “go to hell” then. To the contrary, it was an incredibly exciting time. Catholicism as I experienced it in the fifties and early sixties certainly had an aesthetic beauty – Gregorian chant, candles, incense, bells, the sound of Latin being spoken, etc. – and I loved the fact that it was so “foreign” from the conformist, militaristic of Cold War America.

But the actual practice of the Catholic faith was also pretty limited. There was a lot of counting – keeping track of First Fridays and First Saturdays, piling up days of indulgence, etc. Worse as a teenager was dealing with the image of a petulant, judgmental God, and a Christ who was ready at any moment to damn you to the fires of everlasting hell for missing Sunday Mass or especially for harboring impure thoughts. (To put it mildly, the Sixth and Ninth Commandments got a lot of emphasis.) And that’s why you needed Mary – you pleaded with her as a mother so that she would go and intercede with her Son, cooling his anger before He smote His wrath upon you.

Imagine then in the late 1960's when you heard for the first time the Good News of a loving, forgiving God, of a Jesus who was our brother and who had experienced as a man the same trials and struggles we were experiencing, and who called the Father “Abba” – “Daddy.” There was a famous book of that time written by an Episcopalian priest titled, “Are You Running With Me Jesus?” His insight was that you don’t need to be chasing after God looking for forgiveness. Like the father in the parable of the Prodigal Son, the Father is chasing after you!

Far out!

Suddenly all the counting and guilt and shame seemed so barren. The old style of the Catholic Church became like an ancient mansion on a hill – lovely to look at, charming in its way, but no longer habitable. I for one have not missed it.

Posted by: Pierre Angulaire at Nov 9, 2005 5:44:48 PM

A few comments.

"Obedience" is not a dirty word. To obey legitimate authority whether one understands what one is being told to do or not is a great virtue. Modern man does not understand this, a failure that is the basis of many of the problems in the modern world.

While Orthodox and Eastern Catholics ordain married men, nowhere are validly ordained priests or deacons allowed to marry after ordination (without "laicization"--in which case they may no longer exercise the power of orders). [Question for Eastern brethren: Do the Orthodox have anything like laicization? If so, who can grant it?]

Regarding the "good old days": I have heard that some people argue that there was no need for a Council when II Vatican was called, because everything was going well in the Church. Maybe it looked that way, but God sees what man cannot. Bear in mind that many, or most, of the priests who dishonored their orders and their Church in the sexual abuse scandal were ordained in the "good old days." Clearly something was wrong that was not apparent to human eyes.

Posted by: Henry Dieterich at Nov 9, 2005 5:47:10 PM

That could have used some editing. I said "came from" twice. Sorry.
SFP

Posted by: Susan Peterson at Nov 9, 2005 5:57:31 PM

Amy has aked this question several times over the past year. As a 76yo married former franciscan missionary, retired, still studying and learning and sharing stories with a group of aging adults, I suggest to Amy that things did not crash in such a short period. Amy will remember how often I suggested that people read the work of JFPowers. It covered the period of the boom years of pray, pay and obey and the misadventures of one priest in particular. Powers is a master at portraying the vacuity of the ordained. Some of his stories stick in the memory, one involving a pastor who cut down the only shade tree near the sisters' convent, because"it blocked the chimney air flow." It was the only shady spot near the convent. The despot would not listen to their pleas. Powers work was not well received outside certain literary circles. He frightened the chanceries and the cushy rectories. In my opinion, Powers read the church very well and was in fact merciful in his treatment of its foibles.
I have met Bill Manseau and pay my dues to Corpus which chronicles the hard work he has done for many years, helping resigned priests to qualify for pensions. His dedication and sincerity are really impressive.

Posted by: Tom Kelty at Nov 9, 2005 6:33:37 PM

Google has 1,480,000 screens on JF Powers. His strong point is the short story and his work covered a 30 yr period. If you read nothing else, find his novel Morte D'Urban.

Posted by: Tom Kelty at Nov 9, 2005 6:43:21 PM

JPII laicized plenty of priests, and in fairly short order.

Posted by: amy at Nov 9, 2005 6:52:49 PM

I was never a part of the "old days", but have been accused of it. It seems that if you mention sin at all then you are pre-conciliar. I was born the year Vatican II started and don't remember any of it. Plus I was a convert. It seems to me that they went from talking a lot about sin to never talking about it at all. Frankly the main problem children in the priesthood came from the...60s and 70s. Exactly the time things "loosened up". Maybe we've gotten a little to loose?

Posted by: Fr. J at Nov 9, 2005 7:03:14 PM

I work in canon law, so laicization is not unknown to me. There are no locks on the doors to keep us in. I almost always regret when a guy does it, but if you don't want to live the life you can leave it, sort of. Good formation is essential. Also good support once you're out. But if you leave then you cannot expect to be able to celebrate the sacraments. You made promises and chose to leave, so you must live with the consequences. That is one of them. Corpus is so very wrong. Standing with Peter is a much better group and approach. I encourage all those who have lost the clerical state to live as good Catholics and not violate the laws of the Church.

Posted by: Fr. J at Nov 9, 2005 7:11:30 PM

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