Going Overboard

Polish Dominican asks Gemelli for recording of Pope's heartbeat

A Polish Dominican monk has asked the Rome clinic that treated John Paul II to give him recordings of the late pope's heartbeat, which he hopes to play to ardent Catholics at Christmas midnight mass.

"For years, our hearts beat for him. Today, we want to symbolically listen to his heart," Brother Jan Gora was quoted by the Glos Wielkopolski daily as saying.

"We have taken the first steps" to obtaining recordings of the heartbeat of John Paul II, who died on April 2 in his private apartment at the Vatican, after being hospitalised at the Gemelli Clinic, he said.

If Brother Gora obtains the recording, the late Polish-born pope's heartbeat will be played back during the Agnus Dei at midnight mass in Lednica, in southwestern Poland.

Gentle reminder: It is the Word Made Flesh in Jesus that Christmas celebrates.

Comments

[Fred K.]

Ah. We Catholics love our relics. And if the Poles can't have his heart, they snag his heartbeat. Wow!

[thomas tucker]

File under "Creepy."

[Cheeky Lawyer]

Freaky deaky man!

[Tim Ferguson]

Just please, PUH-LEASE, don't release it as a recording or someone like Moby or Kraftwerk will pick it up and sample it in some Euro-trash disco/rave syntho-pop.

[Maureen]

Well, what do you think the Agnus Dei thing is about?

"Agnus Dei..."
Ba-dump, ba-dump...
"Qui tollis peccata mundi..."
Ba-dump, ba-dump...

It is pretty freaky, but if they weren't using it in the liturgy itself, I wouldn't be opposed to it. I suppose you could even do it inside the Mass, if you chalked it up to all being part of the Body of Christ... but... eh. No, better before the Mass, I'd say.

[Kate P]

If you played it backwards, would you hear one of his encyclicals?

[Tim F.]

Kraftwerk? I vaguely remember now that you mention them. But I think I could have gone my whole life without ever having them crossed my mind again.

[Dan Crawford]

Freaky? Why not just have the heart removed from the corpse and put on permanent display?

And we used to accuse the Communists of cultivating "cults of personality".

[Anonymous Music Person]

Heck, if people want it, fine.
Sell CDs and do good works with the profits, or play it for your own devotions, or let other artists sample it -- but in the MASS??!?@?#??!???
It's part and parcel of the idiocy propogated by so many liturgists, musicians, DREs and pastors -- what can we do to be different, how can we put our own creative stamp on the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass?

[bruce cole]

Creepy and predictable. What's also predictable is the report calling Dominicans monks, rather than friars, but we've been down that road before....

[RP Burke]

Uhm, does this mean that Jack Chick is right after all??

[Susan Peterson]

I cite again the immortal comment of Gerard Manley Hopkins,"One is always finding bad taste in the accessories of Catholicism."
Susan Peterson

[Tom]

Why not just have the heart removed from the corpse and put on permanent display?

You say that like it would be a bad thing.

[Chris]

I just think it's silly. Well, the Mass part isn't cool, either.

[Caroline]

Great quote, Susan. Thanks.

[Didymus]

Hey Tim,
What fo you have against Kraftwerk?
"Autobahn" is an all-time great.
Uh, then again, maybe just an some-time-listenable-if-you-like-German-techno-dance-music.

[Didymus]

Sorry, what DO you have....I hate when that happens.

[hieronymus]

Why not just have the heart removed from the corpse and put on permanent display?

"It ap­pears that Mr. [William] Ir­ons was in the French ca­pi­tal dur­ing the Re­vo­lu­tion of 1848 when, among other atro­ci­ties com­mit­ted, the Arch­bi­shop of Par­is [Denis Auguste-Affre] was mur­dered. Ow­ing to the re­vo­lu­tion­ary spir­it of the peo­ple it was ma­ny days be­fore the fu­ner­al could take place with any de­gree of safe­ty to the mourn­ers. About a fort­night lat­er a Me­mor­i­al Ser­vice was held in Notre Dame, at which Mr. Irons was pre­sent. The Arch­bi­shop’s heart, which had been se­vered from his bo­dy, was placed in a glass cas­ket and rev­er­ent­ly laid on a raised da­ïs in the choir so that all who de­sired to do so might gaze up­on it. As the pro­cess­ion of mourn­ers filed by, cast­ing looks of min­gled ter­ror and af­fect­ion on the faith­ful heart, which had so re­cent­ly beat in their in­ter­ests, the en­tire con­gre­ga­tion sang in muf­fled tones the Di­es Ir­ae. As may well be be­lieved the so­lem­ni­ty of the ser­vice made a deep im­press­ion on the mind of the Eng­lish cler­gy­man pre­sent, and when the con­gre­ga­tion had dis­persed he re­turned to his ho­tel and im­me­di­ate­ly made his now cel­e­brat­ed trans­la­tion of the great La­tin hymn."

From here.

More here.

[Patricia Gonzalez]

Susan Peterson, bravo! And yes, it is creepy. I don't think JPII would approve of it -- and definitely not during Mass! Hope they don't go there!

[MrsDarwin]

Excellent quote, Susan. Makes me think of the B&B my husband and I went to on our honeymoon. The owners were Jewish, but they'd gone hog-wild on eBay buying old Catholic memorabilia with which to decorate. Images of Jesus with eyes that moved, saccharine holy cards -- really bizarre stuff. Much as many may long for the lost beauties of pre-Vatican II Catholicism, it's good to remember that there was also a lot of junk produced as well.

[kelleyb]

This is OT, but I don't know a better or more informed group who can answer this question. Does anyone know about the Cornerstone Forum and Gil Baillie who runs workshops? A member of my bible study waxes poetic about this fellow and wants all of us to join him at the next workshop. Kelleyb

[Christopher]

Seems a bit morbid, and I agree, the late Holy Father would likely not approve, preferring to rightly refocus their attention to meditating upon the coming of the Lord incarnate. I think if it were passed by Pope Benedict, he'd likely disapprove vociferously. Aren't there better, more orthodox ways of remembering John Paul the Great in Advent than this?

[Ed]

I don't like the idea of playing back the heartbeat of anyone at Mass, deceased pontiff or not. There's usually enough unintended biological sounds ( coughing, etc. ) going on at any given mass.

Furthermore, would not the time be better spent reflecting on the late Pope's writings, perhaps in a homily, rather than foisting these histrionic and macabre corruptions of the sacred liturgy on a hapless congregation ? What's next ? Memorial masses for President Kennedy which feature audio recordings of the fatal shots ringing out in Dealy Plaza ? Gimme a break !

[Old Zhou]

During Communion, would you rather listen to a recording of Pope John Paul II's heartbeat,
or sing "I am the Bread of Life" by John Michael Talbot?

By amazing coincidence, OCP composer John Michael Talbot has a CD, Cave of the Heart.

[Maureen]

*paranoid mode*

Maybe this is all a move by the Poles to convince the Vatican to send the heart to Poland. They wanted it pretty bad when he was getting buried.

Here's some quotes about what happened to St. Bernadette's body:

http://www.catholicpilgrims.com/lourdes/bb_bernadette_body.htm

"At the request of the Bishop of Nevers I detached and removed the rear section of the fifth and sixth right ribs as relics; I noted that there was a resistant, hard mass in the thorax, which was the liver covered by the diaphragm. I also took a piece of the diaphragm and the liver beneath it as relics, and can affirm that this organ was in a remarkable state of preservation. I also removed the two patella bones to which the skin clung and which were covered with more clinging calcium matter. Finally, I removed the muscle fragments right and left from the outsides of the thighs. These muscles were also in a very good state of preservation and did not seem to have putrefied at all."

From a later doctor:
"I would have liked to open the left side of the thorax to take the ribs as relics and then remove the heart which I am certain must have survived. However, as the trunk was slightly supported on the left arm, it would have been rather difficult to try and get at the heart without doing too much noticeable damage. As the Mother Superior had expressed a desire for the Saint's heart to be kept together with the whole body, and as Monsignor the Bishop did not insist, I gave up the idea of opening the left-hand side of the thorax and contented myself with removing the two right ribs which were more accessible."

So it's not a silly idea to take the heart out.

[Fr. Philip N. Powell, OP]

Ransom pet peeve: Dominicans are friars not monks. Aquinas spilled quite a bit of ink on the distnction in defense of the mendicant friars against the monks and the seculars.

Heartbeat thing: extra creepy.

Fr. Philip Neri, OP

[Jimmy Mac]

Hey, if Catholics can traipse off to every alleged appearance of the BVM on tortillas, barnsides, water puddles, etc., why not pine for the pope's heartbeat?

What IS it about Catholicism that breeds this kind of stupidity?

[Rosemarie]

+J.M.J+

Look, I loved JPG as much as anyone, but count me in with the "It's weird and creepy" crowd. This is just too, too much.

>>>Freaky? Why not just have the heart removed from the corpse and put on permanent display?

Wait awhile; you never know what they might find when they exhume his body someday for the canonization process...

In Jesu et Maria,

[Gregg the obscure]

Glad to see you ransomed your pet peeve, Father, so now you can return to petting it.
;-)

Heartbeat thing: ok outside of Mass, probably an unwarranted distraction during it.

[Amy Pawlak]

I loved, respected, and adored JPII and his death solidified my desire to convert (I was received in May after several months' instruction; I only wish he'd been Pope during that time).

But this heartbeat thing is strange and kind of creepy. Especially during Mass. I respect their mourning and realize they miss the Pope, but a nice picture of him in the Church should suffice.

Let his loving heart rest in peace.

[hieronymus]

I like creepy. We Catholics do morbidity better than anyone. But recorded sounds have no place in the liturgy.

[Julia]

We have body parts beneath all of our altars.
And - ever seen a charnelhouse?

Some years ago I was in Ronda, Spain. We hears that we could get these great cookies at a Carmelite monastery - forgot the name of them - so we went to this small room behind the public church. While my travel partner waited in line to put money into a revolving shelf so the nun on the inside could get the cookies to us, I wandered around. I saw a glass case that had what looked like a brass or gold hand - like those glove models you see at department stores. The I noticed a description on a card in Spanish. My friend came over and he tells me that St Teresa of Avila's hand is inside the form.

I think Americans are squeamish about this stuff due to the Puritan atmosphere in this country. I remember reading in history books about hearts being buried separately from bodies when several places wanted the honor of having a great person buried in their soil.

I agree with the poster who thinks this is gently reminding the Vatican that JPII kinda wanted his heart to be buried in Poland. Did he even say to his countrymen after becoming Pope (in one of those recent movies) that his heart would always be with the Polish people even though he was far away in Rome?

I wonder why his secretary didn't insist on it right after JPII died?

[Julia]

Here's a long article on the history of burying hearts separately from the body OR of enclosing them in gold caskets to be puton display in churches, etc. This was done even in England. It mostly involved wealthy and notable people - very interesting.

http://www.thebookofdays.com/months/oct/5.htm

[Old Zhou]

I must confess that in Italy I enjoyed going to Mass with corpses resting next to me at the end of the line of chairs (no pews) in several churches, and look forward to repeating the experience. It is so hard to find a Church in the San Francisco area where even the dead join in the "active participation" at the Mass. And that is just the bodies visible above ground, not counting the numerous members of the community buried beneath the floor. Santa Croce is Florence is a veritable "who's who" of Renaissance remains, with both Michaelangelo, Dante and Galileo buried in the Church.

The floor is paved with worn tombstones--because being buried in this hallowed sanctuary got you one step closer to Heaven, the richest families of the day paid big bucks to stake out small rectangles of the floor. On the right aisle is the first tomb of note, a mad Vasari contraption (currently under restoration) containing the bones of the most venerated of Renaissance masters, Michelangelo Buonarroti, who died of a fever in Rome in 1564 at the ripe age of 89. The pope wanted him buried in the Eternal City, but Florentines managed to sneak his body back to Florence. Past Michelangelo is a pompous 19th-century cenotaph to Florentine Dante Alighieri, one of history's greatest poets, whose Divine Comedy codified the Italian language. He died in 1321 in Ravenna after a long and bitter life in exile from his hometown (on trumped-up embezzlement charges), and that Adriatic city has never seen fit to return the bones to Florence, the city that would never readmit the poet when he was alive.

I say, Let the dead go to Church! (whole or in pieces). It might help the living better understand what they are doing there.

[reluctant penitent]

'During Communion, would you rather listen to a recording of Pope John Paul II's heartbeat,
or sing "I am the Bread of Life" by John Michael Talbot?'

Are these really the only options?

[Ed]

Julia,

In the 20th century, the heart of the English poet, Thomas Hardy, was buried separately from his body. He died in 1928.

[Sr. Lorraine]

Things like this come out of a European mentality, it seems to me. I remember being creeped out at the shrine of St. Joseph in Montreal because they have Br. Andre's heart encased in a special monument. Then there were the "bone churches" that had bone relics plastered all over the walls in decorative patterns.
Recall the fate of poor St. Thomas Aquinas--he died in a Carthusian monastery and fearing the Dominicans would want his body back, they beheaded him! Later his body was further dismembered for more relics.

[Julia]

Ed:

That's cool about Hardy. I'm guessing that his body is in Westminster Abbey and his heart back in his hometown? It seems that more recently a famous person who must be buried in a honorary place due to his office or fame or whatever, has the heart sent back to the place where his family is buried.

One of the weirder stories I found was about a wealthy noble who made a solemn vow to return to the Holy Land on Crusade but died before he could do that. He left money sepcifically to pay for his heart in a golden cask to lead a contingent of soldiers to re-join the good fight in the Holy Land. His disrespectful son ignored the request and used the money for something else.

[PMC]

It's no more creepy -- actually, far less creepy -- than hand reliquaries, effigies, death masks, etc. It's surely a relic, but it's a relic of life itself, not death. In that respect, it differs from other relics, which to some extent are aimed at reminding us of our mortality. This relic reminds us of both life and death at once. I dunno... doesn't bother me much.

[Ed]

Here's a link to see the "Ossuary in Sedlec", a place in the Czech Republic. There are photos provided on their website.

http://www.ludd.luth.se/~silver_p/kutna.html

It's a Catholic church or chapel which has chandeliers, monstrances, etc., assembled from skulls and bones of people once buried in the churchyard. I mean to visit this place sometime this side of the grave. I wouldn't mind if they used my bones for part of chandelier - at least "I" could then bring some light into the world. :)

[Blind Squirrel]

The Irish nationalist (and achiever of Catholic Emancipatioon) Daniel O'Connell died in 1848 while en route to the Vatican on pilgrimage. He directed that his heart be removed and taken to Rome, where I believe it is still on display at the Irish College.

The acerbic poet Niall Sheridan commented on the division of his physical remains as follows:-

"Dying, he sent his heart to Rome;
His testicles he left at home,
To show, by one satiric touch,
No nation needed them as much."

[Charles A.]

sounds like Sheridan's copying J. Swift ('Verses on the Death of Dr. Swift' - his own - )

"He gave what little wealth he had
To found a home for fools and mad,
And showed by one satiric touch
No nation needed one as much."

Swift actually left a bequest to found an asylum.

[Liam]

FOrtunately, liturgical law forbids the use of recorded music during liturgy (except in limited purposes in the masses for children).

So this gruesome sound could be used in devotion, but not liturgy.

[ken]

I wanted to respond to Zhou's musical reference much earlier, but it has taken me this long to clean the puke off of my shoes and carpet.

Thank you for the 1980's flahback moment.

[scotch meg]

Another heart to the Holy Land story follows one of the early Scots kings -- I believe it was Robert the Bruce.

[Adam]

The praecordia, i.e. hearts and entrails, of the popes from Sixtus V to Leo XIII (Pius X stopped the practice) are buried at the church of Santi Vincenzo e Anastasio near the Quirinale. The segment of JPii's intestine removed after the assasination attempt of 1981 is said to be buried in the same church. Has anyone seen it?

[Julia]

Ken:

And He will RAAAAAA Zou up
And He will RAAAAAA Zou up
And He will RAAAAAA Zou up on the laaaaaast day.

I wonder how that works when the body parts are all over the place.

[Blind Squirrel]

Got it in one, Don Carlo--well spotted.

[Liam]

Julia

It's not your mortal body remains that get raised, but a glorified body with different qualities.

Saints are declared to be in heaven: including those, like St Joan, whose mortal body was reduced to ashes and scattered. These saints will have a glorified body in heaven, too.

[Maureen]

"I wonder how that works when the body parts are all over the place."

Same way it worked when God created the universe, incarnated as a male human, etc.
He's got omnipotent divine power. He wrote the whole system. It only exists and continues to exist because He wants it to.

So He can make it do whatever He wants, how ever He wants to do it. And if God wants planets to do cartwheels and the trees to do all the Russian Olympics team's routines, they will do them.

So I'm not really clear on the point of speculating now on how this will be done, as it will soon enough happen in the twinkling of an eye; and then we'll presumably know all about it.

[ken]

I'm not sure about body parts, but my breakfast is all over the place.

[Julia]

Sorry, my comments were an adolescent tongue-in-cheek meditation prompted by Old Zhou's & Ken's references to "I am the Bread of Life" by John Michael Talbot. Not meant as a serious theological observation.

[JC]

1. What's so "morbid" about relics?

2. Obviously, playing it at mass is wrong.

3. It raises an interesting point that medical tests would be whatever-class relics. But the point of a relic is to help transmit the saint's grace, protect against the Devil, etc. I dont' see how a recording of his heart would do that. I'd rather hear a recording of his voice.

4. Modern Catholics, fearing association with End Times Fundamentalists, seem to forget that physical resurrection of the body will not occur until the end of the world.
There are only four embodied people that we know of in Heaven: Jesus, Mary, Enoch and Elijah. Maybe Moses or a few others.
But those who are in Heaven now are spirits in exile. Only at the end of time will the bodies be resurrected.

[Therese Z]

Oh, dear, I LIKE John Michael Talbot. I'm the right age for that strum strum-ah strum-ah folk song hymn style.

But the heartbeat thing is icky, inside or outside of Mass. Maybe as part of a commemorative CD with his poetry and/or speeches and the JPII We Love You song. A nice fundraiser for World Youth Day, perhaps.

[Joe]

Sicko.

[Suzanne]

St. Bernadette ate mud, at our Lady's bequest (snicker-snicker). She was clearly insane. Catholics have split up the bodies of saints traditionally for centuries. That's plain nuts. Sometimes Catholics KISS the pieces of the same dead bodies.GROSS! DURING LitURGIES some times!!! GASP! Morbid and SICK, for sure. For crying out loud, Catholics eat the LIVING BODY OF CHRIST EVERY SUNDAY (and some every day) at Mass!

I see nothing very strange at ALL with playing the recorded heartbeat of a hopeful saint. Maybe Mass time isn't the best of all possible choices. But it's certianly not "going too far." There are far more important things going on in the Church for us to look down our noses at and scoff. Let's spend our time more profitably and less protestantly.

[jd]

I think Moby sampling the heartbeat would actually be pretty cool.