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December 05, 2005
Troublesome Poland
When Polish members of the European Parliament placed an anti-abortion display in a parliamentary corridor in Strasbourg, France, recently, Ana Gomes, a Socialist legislator from Portugal, felt compelled to act, she said.
The display showed children in a concentration camp, linking abortion and Nazi crimes. "We found this deeply offensive," Ms. Gomes said. "We tried to remove it." A loud scuffle ensued as she and the Poles traded insults before the display was bundled away by Parliament guards.
But the matter does not end there. It was the latest skirmish in what some here see as an incipient culture war in the heart of Europe, a clash of values that has intensified since countries from Central and Eastern Europe that are experiencing an increase in the influence of the Roman Catholic Church joined the European Union last year.
In the 732-seat European Parliament, and more widely in the European Union, the clash extends beyond abortion to issues like women's rights and homosexuality.
"New groups have come in from Poland, the Czech Republic, Latvia, and Catholicism is certainly becoming a very angry voice against what it sees as a liberal E.U.," said Michael Cashman, 54, a European Parliament member from Britain who has campaigned for gay rights. "On women's rights and gay equality, we are fighting battles that we thought we had won years ago."
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Comments
The EU is starting to resemble the the anti-christ more and more...GO Poland!!!
Posted by: Tom at Dec 5, 2005 9:53:29 AM
Using military terminology is disturbing. To even suggest that Poland become a battleground once again should cause the world to shudder.
Posted by: cs at Dec 5, 2005 9:56:15 AM
Now this ought to be fun. Probably looks to the EU insiders like those old Three Stooges shorts where the boys would tear up the party and cause a food fight. "We're fighting battles that we thought we had won years ago," harrumphs the EU insider. Cost of plane fare- $800. The look on his face while making this quote- priceless.
Posted by: Gerard E. at Dec 5, 2005 10:02:44 AM
So, the anti-abortion posters were carted away. The right to freely express anti-abortion views was a battle that I thought Europeans had won years ago ...
Time for another round of Kulturkampf.
Posted by: Ed at Dec 5, 2005 10:31:31 AM
"On women's rights and gay equality, we are fighting battles that we thought we had won years ago."
From ashes a fire shall be woken, A light from the shadows shall spring...
Posted by: brendon at Dec 5, 2005 10:33:35 AM
Ana Gomes was a member of the portuguese far left until a few years ago. She later joined the (social democrat) socialist party who is currently the majority party in Portugal.
She has also been portuguese ambassador to Indonesia. She never pulled a stunt like this while she was living in a muslim country.
The portuguese socialist party uses this kind of tricks to move the media spotlight away form their very harsh (and EU mandated) spending cuts. They will promote a new abortion referendum next year, they are currently forcing schools to ban crucifixes, they promote homossexual marriage, etc...
Posted by: Joao at Dec 5, 2005 10:38:22 AM
Last night I watched the Pope movie on CBS with one of my 50% Polish sons. What a great talk we had afterwards about the bravery of Poland and the cajones that JPII had in abundance. Talk about muscular Christianity.
After my son's not going to Mass in years, we had this wonderful far-ranging talk about Christian values. In particular, he is growing very disinchanted with his married friends who like to frequent the many strip clubs in the area. What does this say to these guys' wives? What does it say about where their head is? And that there really are things that are "wrong". Found out that he has been turning down invites to go along. Also opened up a space where he could finally tell me about why he quit being an altar boy so abruptly - had a "funny" feeling about the priest - one who was defrocked for fun and games with boys only a few years after my son quit serving.
My son tells me the non-Catholic guys he knows are all convinced that 90% of Catholic priests are perverts. These films about JPII go a long way to present an alternative picture of strength and integrity in the Church. Thank you, JPII.
The scenes of JPII off with the young folks kyaking and hiking in the mountains brought up the subject of another defrocked local priest who had run the diocesan camp for years. Out of the hearing of teachers and girl students, the pitch given to boys to attend camp had been to not bring along your swimming suit, but don't tell your mom, it's a guy thing. Then, my sons now tell me, father would come to the swimming hole and look them over. This went on for years and years. Our area Catholic boys were afraid nobody would believe them. My youngest brother waited until after my father died to tell the rest of us what had happened to him at the camp. Father called our parents from camp before my brother got home with a phoney story of my brother's bad conduct and my brother was grounded for months with no chance to tell the real story. Another brother recently confided that father would come into his cabin at night and give massages to some of the other cabin-mates. Then there were the "Indian" rituals involving running through the woods naked at night with torches!
God bless John Paul for a different view of Catholic manhood. He had his failings and blind spots, but I'm so glad these movies about his remarkable life are coming out.
Go Poland !!! Google the Battle of Vienna and see how Poland saved Europe from the last Muslim incursions. Maybe they will help save Europe again, God willing.
Posted by: Julia at Dec 5, 2005 10:46:35 AM
So, the anti-abortion posters were carted away. The right to freely express anti-abortion views was a battle that I thought Europeans had won years ago ...
It is a well-known internet discussion rule that once Nazism is invoked, all rational discussion has ended. It holds in the real world also. Those posters demonstrated it.
Don't believe me? Let's talk about George Bush's Nazi-like tendencies. That little rush of disgust and anger you just experienced is the proof. It wouldn't matter that I might make an apt analogy between Bush's policies and Nazism, it just isn't possible to have a rational discussion once the analogy is made.
Posted by: catholic at Dec 5, 2005 11:16:02 AM
catholic, what if the discussion is about, say, 1930's Spain?
Posted by: john c at Dec 5, 2005 12:12:45 PM
.... or Stalin's genocide in Ukraine?
Posted by: john c at Dec 5, 2005 12:13:37 PM
...or a modern million-or-so per year genocide in the United States for that matter...
The rule isn't prescriptive, it just says that the probability that Nazis will come up on an internet conversation approaches one as the length of the conversation increases.
Posted by: john c at Dec 5, 2005 12:17:01 PM
Look, we need to dispel all this anti-European nonsense peddled by the likes of George Weigel.
First, abortion rates are lower in many European countries (including France, Germany, Italy, United Kingdom, Ireland, Denmark, and Sweden) than they are in the United States.
Second, Europe does not believe in the death penalty, thus aligning it closer to the Church on that issue.
Third, Europe has less of a militaristic culture, and is less likely to engage in preemptive and other kinds of unjust wars condemned by the Vatican. Likewise, it is more supportive of the United Nations and international cooperation, as indeed is the Church. Also, the executive branch's in Europe do not condone torture (how shocking that I even need to write this).
Fourth, Europe does better on social justice grounds, in terms of poverty elleviation, and access to heathcare and education.
Europe of course has problems. Its rates of labor utilization are far too low. Some countries have problems integrating migrants and minorities. And its trade policies are the cause of so much suffering across the developing world. But while the United States claims to be more religious, all this actually means is that there are lots of vocal fundamentalists, who really deviate from historic Christianity in so many ways.
Tony.
Posted by: Tony A at Dec 5, 2005 12:28:07 PM
I agree with Tony on much of what he said.
But if Europeans don't start having more children, they will be a minority in 50 years or so.
Do you think St. Paul's in London or the Louvre in Paris might make great mosques? Nobody in Constantinople thought that the Hagia Sophia would be changed. How 'bout St. Peter's in Rome?
It has happened. A lot of cultures have a better sense of history than the West does. And they sometimes are willing to bide their time.
Posted by: Minn-Ray at Dec 5, 2005 12:59:04 PM
Per Tony's comments, I agree with a little and disagree with a lot. I spent a semester in Spain and can say that the legacy of Catholicism in its culture is still noticable to one coming from the United States. In short, they seemed to focus on the importance of people and family more, and a lot less on things, popularity, competition. While we are so busy making money and racing to activities they tend to make time for talking with friends and going for a walk.
On the other hand, not a soul went to Mass among the youth--and this was in a part of Spain notorious for its ardent Catholicism. The reality is that the Church is dying there, with the exception of a minority (mainly associated with the movements) which is very faithful and zealous, but is tiny compared with the general population. Of course, they are not reproducing either (at least part of the reason for the low abortion rate is due to high contraception/sterilization).
I would also disagree with your dismissal of American religiosity and Evangelicals, (perjoratively labeled fundamentalists) in particular. As a former Evangelical Protestant I'm well aware of the short-comings of this brand of Christianity, but the Holy Spirit is alive and well in many of these folks.
My European friends are genuinely shocked by the religiosity of Americans. There is a very real difference between the two, but it will be interesting to see if Europe can redisover its Catholic roots. I think it would offer a powerful alternative voice to that of the bland, evangelical right, which I think Tony is correct in desiring.
Posted by: GregY at Dec 5, 2005 1:28:58 PM
Michael Cashman is a former UK soap opera actor. He is a well-known homosexual activist.
Posted by: Gerry O' Neil at Dec 5, 2005 1:55:31 PM
The left has destroyed any use at all of the Nazi metaphor by dragging it out for everything. But after looking at the many galleries of photos of aborted babies on the Priests for Life website, the only comparison that comes to mind - the ONLY one - is the photos I had seen of bodies in the death camps.
It breaks my heart to hear women say they are "offended" by anti-abortion displays such as the one the Poles mounted, rather than by the slaughter of the innocents.
Posted by: Mary at Dec 5, 2005 4:09:26 PM
I agree with Mary, except that I would insert the word "nearly" before the word "destroyed" in her first sentence, simply because I agree with her second sentence. Concerning her third sentence, I agree with it.
Posted by: john c at Dec 5, 2005 5:19:34 PM
"I would rather we had moved on," said Ms. Gomes, the Portuguese legislator, "but if we have to have that ideological and political fight, then I am ready."
I find this somewhat funny, given the context. She proves that she is ready for a political fight by having guards remove the display.
Nice reasoned argument you have there, Representative Gomes!
Posted by: Kenny at Dec 5, 2005 5:45:18 PM
The rule isn't prescriptive, it just says that the probability that Nazis will come up on an internet conversation approaches one as the length of the conversation increases.
That would be Godwin's rule. There is another, unnamed rule commonly associated with Godwin's rule (sometimes misattributed as Godwin's rule) that the useful life of threads end when Nazi's are mentioned. It is this latter rule to which I referred.
To others who mentioned places where an analogy with Nazism my be apt: whether the analogy is appropriate or not wasn't my point. The point is: accusing someone of Nazi-like behavior elicits extreme polarizing emotional responses. Thus, the response by pro-abortionists is to be expected. And the polarization remains with no progress made. It was all heat and no light.
Posted by: catholic at Dec 5, 2005 6:20:27 PM
"Europe does better on social justice grounds, in terms of poverty elleviation, and access to heathcare and education."
Not in my litle corner of 'Europe'.
We do in fact have 'unversal' and 'free' healthcare (financed by 40%+ income tax starting at very low levels of income + 21% VAT + an array of other taxes), but if you want to see a doctor or have an operation you will have to wait a few years. The alternative is to go to a privately owned clinic and pay much more than americans do for the same service.
And we do have universal 'free' education. Except that children leave school without basic skills and with a lot of leftist nonsense in their heads.
Concerning poverty we have been benefiting form the effects of robust economic growth since the turn of the century. Sometimes we were even able to top 1% a year. Strangely, in this context, the poor have not been able to pull themselves up above the poverty line, in spite of a massive increase in goverment 'social' spending (the people at the ministries have been doing ok, though).
Ah, and by the way, in the capital city only 12% of the population go to Church on Sundays. But that's OK as long as we have 'social justice', no functioning army and show our commitment to international solidarity and cooperation by making long well-intentioned speeches at the relevant international forums.
Posted by: Joao at Dec 6, 2005 6:23:38 AM
Joao:
Are you in Brazil? or where?
Posted by: Julia at Dec 6, 2005 11:33:46 AM
Sounds like João might be from Ms Gomez' little country.
Posted by: john c at Dec 6, 2005 2:46:42 PM
catholic:
Bah! Who's started calling anyone a nazi on this post. The original post was about Polish members displaying sign which visually compared the victims of the two holocausts (my words). How can it be forbidden by some rule (borne of the internet miasma of confusion) to use the word nazi, especially since--as you seem to admit--it is apt here.
Posted by: john c at Dec 6, 2005 2:52:19 PM
