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February 09, 2006
Irony defined
Go read the Insight Scoop blog to see who Notre Dame just hired and where he came from.
Here's the Christianity Today report:
Aside from his scholarly writing, Noll has fostered networks of evangelical scholars. He helped to found the Institute for the Study of American Evangelicalism, and in other informal ways, Noll fostered the evangelical intellectual community, according to Wilson.
"I think he has helped us break caricatures of evangelical anti-intellectualism," says Jones. "Noll is an exemplar of all that's good in Christian academia. He set the standard of what it means to be a Christian scholar and a Christian teacher." Despite being courted by other major universities, Noll has, until now, turned them down.
"The position he is going to is fantastic," says Jones. "There are two things Notre Dame is offering that Wheaton can't. One is Notre Dame's expansive intellectual community, especially in regard to history and religion. Another is the intensive training of a fine cadre of doctoral students."
McGreevy said the department had been considering how to replace George Marsden, who will retire in a little more than a year. Marsden has been a crucial part of the graduate program and the leading intellectual presence, says McGreevy. Marsden was unavailable for comment.
Noll expressed an interest in coming to the university, says McGreevy, and was invited to interview. Noll declined to comment on his departure.
"One of the attractions for us is Mark's interest in global Christianity," says McGreevy.
Noll is also active in dialogue between Catholics and Protestants. Noll and Carolyn Nystrom recently published Is the Reformation Over? "One thing Mark is committed to is Protestant/Catholic dialogue," says McGreevy. "Notre Dame is a good place to do that. There are lots of serious Catholics and Protestants who want to think about those issues."
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Amy Welborn in a post related to the latest Wheaton College news: Evangelical Protestantism, especially in the US, was/is really only able to thrive in an a-historical environment, in sort of the mystical, Wesleyan, pentecostal model. When you just hav... [Read More]
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» Protestants and Church History from Eunomia
Amy Welborn writes on the latest Wheaton College news: Evangelical Protestantism, especially in the US, was/is really only able to thrive in an a-historical environment, in sort of the mystical, Wesleyan, pentecostal model. When you just have Scripture... [Read More]
Tracked on Feb 10, 2006 9:11:10 PM
Comments
I don't see the "irony," in case anyone wants to explain it to me.
What I do see is two historians from Wheaton now teaching at Catholic institutions.
Actually, I firmly believe that any serious student of Church History (integral Church history, not just Early Church and Fathers and Reformation and Later...skipping over the Middle), will have to admit that the Roman Catholic Church is The Church in the West, the one that gave us Scripture and Worship and Doctrine and Music, and that, on the whole, the mistakes of the Catholic Church are not worse than the mistakes of the Protestant Churches. So much for being right.
Evangelical Protestantism, especially in the US, was/is really only able to thrive in an a-historical environment, in sort of the mystical, Wesleyan, pentecostal model. When you just have Scripture and Holy Spirit, you can be very independent and thumb your nose at the Catholic Church. Learning Church History changes that.
Of course, on the other hand, Catholics ignorant of Church History and Tradition and Scripture can be easily carried over into a-historical Protestant Churches. Think of those large numbers of Catholics in Latin America who are becoming evangelicals, many with a pentecostal flavor.
Posted by: Old Zhou at Feb 9, 2006 2:03:18 PM
There has been a strong reformed presence at Notre Dame in the philosophy department for a number of years.
Posted by: Benedict at Feb 9, 2006 2:17:09 PM
irony: "Incongruity between what might be expected and what actually occurs. An occurrence, result, or circumstance notable for such incongruity."
A leading Evangelical college fires a professor for becoming Catholic. A leading Catholic university later hires a well-known Evangelical professor from the leading Evangelical college that fired the professor who became Catholic.
That, to me, is ironic. No, it's not surprising that ND would hire a Protestant; it's striking that they hired the best-known professor from Wheaton College -- the same school that recently fired a professor for becoming Catholic. If "ironic" seems too strong, then simply substitute "mildly curious" or "somewhat amusing." :-)
Posted by: Carl Olson at Feb 9, 2006 2:20:52 PM
Thanks, Carl, but I still don't see "irony."
I see a very expected migration of those study and understand history from an ahistorical evangelical Protestant college to a Catholic college.
Now, if Wheaton had hired McBrien away from ND...
Posted by: Old Zhou at Feb 9, 2006 2:22:52 PM
Old Zhou,
This is pretty unexpected, no matter what generalizations you want to make about Protestants and Catholics. Let's stop the gloating before he decides to high-tail it back to Wheaton.
Noll had declined previous offers from major research universities and has deep, deep roots in the Wheaton community itself. He is an elder at one of the local Presbyterian churches (Emmanuel, I think) in addition to being the most prominent member of the faculty (hence, a mentor to many other students and faculty).
Posted by: scriblerus at Feb 9, 2006 2:29:20 PM
Old Zhou: I fully understand your point and agree with it. My use of "irony" isn't aimed at Dr. Noll's reasons or the logic of such a move (for the record, I have great, great admiration for Dr. Noll, who I've had the chance to talk to a few times). The irony lies in the juxtaposition of the timing/firing/hiring.
Posted by: Carl Olson at Feb 9, 2006 2:29:55 PM
I don't necessarily see irony but I do see a situatiion where the abundant truth is able to envelope partial truths. The inverse is somewhat impossible, is it not?
In this case, I find what happened as "what might be expected."
Posted by: Nick at Feb 9, 2006 2:31:40 PM
I know some Protestants who have a running bet on whether or how long until Noll converts to Catholicism.
Posted by: Kevin Jones at Feb 9, 2006 2:43:03 PM
Kevin Jones' comment is interesting. I haveat least one "non-Catholic" Christian (I'm not sure "Protestant" describes him accurately) friend who does a ton of serious, scholarly stuff that is dynamite and VERY pro-Catholic.
I don't mean to "play politics" with someone's salvation or with the truth, but I wonder for Dr. Noll and for the friend I mention above the effects of a conversion to Catholicism would have on their work. It would seem that some would see such a conversion as discrediting their prior work.
Again, I don't hope or want anyone to avoid converting because it would lessen his or her influence or hurt his or her career. I just wonder about the kinds of pressure folks like Dr. Noll are under, internally and externally.
Posted by: Cranky Lawyer at Feb 9, 2006 3:21:39 PM
Perhaps ironic. Certainly INTERESTING that such a prominent evangelical scholar has been hired to the faculty of the most prominent Catholic university in the country, and maybe the world.
One can admire ND for being willing to hire faculty of other Christian traditions. It's a close question for me as to whether what Wheaton did was wrong, or "small" on their part, or, to the contrary, a display of intellectual and spiritual consistency.
Posted by: Larry at Feb 9, 2006 3:24:28 PM
All roads lead to Rome.
Surely someone important has said that?
Posted by: DOCTOR J at Feb 9, 2006 3:31:08 PM
All irony aside, I love this. It pleases me to no end. The only thing that would ice this, per Mr. Jones comment, is a conversion.
Unfortunately for Wheaton, Noll was my one prominent example of a broadminded, nationally-respected scholar that functioned effectively from there. I cited him numerous times as a counter example to others' accusations of Wheaton's intolerance; I remembered him when I was tempted to denigrate the school.
Still, bravo to Notre Dame!
Posted by: Smithin Wells at Feb 9, 2006 4:08:14 PM
Wheaton College... definitely has its problems.
But OTOH, when pretty much nobody else was interested in putting up Christian literature, they put up CCEL. That's been very useful to just about everybody. I'll forgive a university a lot of sins for doing a good job with its primary mission -- disseminating knowledge.
Posted by: Maureen O'Brien at Feb 9, 2006 4:24:00 PM
Evangelical institutions and publishers (aka Eerdmans and Intervarsity) have, ironically enough, been on the forefront of publishing patristics material in the US over the past 15 years.
Posted by: Amy at Feb 9, 2006 4:30:48 PM
Notre Dame's philosophy department has a history of hiring good Protestant philosophers:
Alvin Plantinga
Peter van Inwagen
Robert Audi
Others?
Posted by: David at Feb 9, 2006 4:47:34 PM
Amy's comment is true, and makes me a bit sad. But the situation is also complex.
I myself have had for many years the multi-volume, three part series of Early Church Fathers (22,896 pages), reprinted by Hendrickson. I first started reading these back around 1978, and they were an important part of my formation as and evangelical preacher.
Along my way back to the Catholic Church, I was also happy to see so many references to the Fathers in the Vatican II Council and its preparations.
Then I got here, and realized that nobody in the parish reads this stuff. They read popular literature, DVC, etc. Maybe, if they practice the Office of Readings in the Liturgy of the Hours, they get some exposure. But not much.
I don't think it is a simple matter. Although there are some recent English translations of Patristic literature, mostly from academic sources, of course, there is a lot of 18th century British translations (such as the series I mentioned) still floating around in reprint 150 years later.
The Catholic Church (global) has, I think, very little interest in worrying about translating this stuff into English. There are enough English translation problems already.
The standard collections of these materials in the West, Migne's Patrologiae Graecae and Migne's Patrologia Latina are best left in Greek and Latin, in my opinion, if someone really wants to study Patristic Literature. Many Catholic libraries have the whole series in Latin.
There are also modern editions of the Greek and Latin patristic texts which are, I believe, superior to anything available in English now or in the future.
So there are many issues:
(1) The available large collection in English tends, for the most part, to be 150 years old and from England. Selections were made to support Protestant students. Many writings of more interest to Catholics are omitted.
(2) There is a wide variety of academic works in English on individual writers, of varied depth, competence, and perspective. This is expensive.
(3) The foundational Catholic collections are in Latin and Greek, as are all source materials. Just learn Latin and Greek! That is what "grammar school" is for.
(4) Your average "Joe American Catholic" has little interest in, say, Gregory of Nazianzus or Ephrem the Syrian, and is much more interested in many other things.
(5) The Catholic Church has many problems with translating Anything into English, and probably doesn't want to get into this.
So, yeah, the evangelicals have this market in English.
Posted by: Old Zhou at Feb 9, 2006 5:01:45 PM
Evangelical institutions and publishers (aka Eerdmans and Intervarsity) have, ironically enough, been on the forefront of publishing patristics material in the US over the past 15 years.
Too bad none of those authors could have taught at Wheaton if they were alive today... ;-)
I buy far more books from Eerdmans and IVP than I do from most Catholic publishers. (That would be different if I didn't receive free books from Ignatius Press.)
Posted by: Carl Olson at Feb 9, 2006 5:02:12 PM
Larry,
One can admire ND for being willing to hire faculty of other Christian traditions. It's a close question for me as to whether what Wheaton did was wrong, or "small" on their part, or, to the contrary, a display of intellectual and spiritual consistency."
I believe that the correct answer is: "All three: wrong and small and a display of intellectual and spiritual consistency." The problem is that sticking to one's principles with consistency is a virtue only if one's principles are correct. In this case, a skewed understanding of the relation between faith and reason has resulted in an excessive fear of "outsiders," even sympathetic outsiders.
Sure, you can go too far in the other direction, too, as some nominally Catholic universities have.
This is just one of the reasons why St. Thomas Aquinas's teaching on faith and reason, along with his example, is just as important and relevant today as it has ever been.
Posted by: Alfredo at Feb 9, 2006 5:04:05 PM
I don't mean to "play politics" with someone's salvation or with the truth, but I wonder for Dr. Noll and for the friend I mention above the effects of a conversion to Catholicism would have on their work. It would seem that some would see such a conversion as discrediting their prior work.
Yes, this is definitely something to think about. J. Budsiszewski, a scholar who really helped revive interest in Natural Law ethics among Protestants, converted a year or two back. His conversion actually might have real political ramifications, since some lawyers, like in the Romer v. Evans case, have been depicting Natural Law reasoning as a sectarian "Catholic Thang" despite the school's Anglican and Calvinist adherents in the past. One less Protestant NL ethicist makes that sectarian label seem all the more justifiable.
It's not just academics who worry about this. I've heard the founder of Alcoholics Anonymous didn't convert to Catholicism for fear it would discredit his organization in the eyes of people who really needed its help.
Posted by: Kevin Jones at Feb 9, 2006 5:20:36 PM
Doctor J--"All roads lead to Rome; that is one reason why many people never get there" is a quote from that master of paradox, G.K. Chesterton
Posted by: LadyHatton at Feb 9, 2006 5:39:27 PM
Old Zhou,
there are several ongoing Catholic projects translating church fathers into English: Paulist Press- Ancient Christian Writers, CUA Press -- Fathers of the Church, New City Press -- St. Augustine series. (So it is not just the evangelicals!) And unlike your experience I do find many lay Catholics interested in these writings.
And while I agree with the "ahistorical" character of much evangelicalism, that does not characterize Wheaton -- it was precisely at Wheaton where I was introduced to a concern for Christian history generally and the importance of the Church Fathers specifically. My journey into the Catholic Church began with reading the Fathers at Wheaton. I still have a high opinion of the place and think Catholic colleges could learn much from Wheaton about integration of faith and learning.
As to Dr. Noll, I can only wish him the best. I must say, reading his recent book, he did at times sound like someone that "could" cross over to Rome.
Posted by: gresham at Feb 9, 2006 6:09:07 PM
Dear Gresham,
I find that NCP's work is at a level appropriate to the grocery check-out racks, right next to Good Housekeeping, or perhaps reading in the bathroom. I keep waiting for them to come out with the first series of "Christian Classic Graphic Novels--Manga for the New Man." Maybe they aim at a certain sort of broad market.
The Paulist Press ACW and CUA series are much more respectable. I do have the CUA "Medieval Continuation" volumes to extend the Fathers. These modern translations do get very expensive.
Still, just as any respectable Bible scholar should be able to work with sources in Greek and Hebrew, and early translations such as Latin, I feel that anyone who is serious about Patristic literature should be able to do their own reading and translation in Greek and Latin. Translation is such a personal, idiosyncratic thing, that even a good, respectable, "approved" translation will involve certain peculiarities of how the translator was feeling and thinking when the work was done.
Posted by: Old Zhou at Feb 9, 2006 6:21:18 PM
And let's not forget that Notre Dame has a great deal of money set aside precisely for the purpose of luring prominent scholars to South Bend.
In my experience Protestant scholars of religion know more and are more respectful of the Church than dozens of Catholics. Many of my Catholic students have no idea what Purgatory is until it they are taught Dante by a prominent Presbyterian theologian.
Posted by: David Kubiak at Feb 9, 2006 6:38:29 PM
And while I agree with the "ahistorical" character of much evangelicalism, that does not characterize Wheaton -- it was precisely at Wheaton where I was introduced to a concern for Christian history generally and the importance of the Church Fathers specifically.
I second this. It was at Wheaton that I began taking seriously the history of the Church, which led to my thinking seriously about converting.
Posted by: Jon W at Feb 9, 2006 8:47:36 PM
I've always been interested in the Fathers, especially when I realized they also included the Mothers. (Yay, Ss. Perpetua and Felicitas!) My dad had a little paperback of selections from early Christian writers in with the rest of his old college paperbacks. I had a hard time finding more of that kind of stuff at my school and university libraries, though. (Yay for CCEL and the Internet!)
Right now, I am passing on my odd idea of enjoyment by reading one selection from the Fathers every week on my podcast. (Right now, we're working our way through the Catechetical Lectures. It's become one of my most downloaded shows!)
I love languages, and I agree that the serious patristics scholar should know Greek and Latin. But geez, Zhou, translating in order to read loses its charms pretty quickly for the general reader. I've gone through a couple of extremely light Russian novels that way, and it took me months and months each time! Even the second time, with experience, better reading skills, an electronic text, a really good physical dictionary, Google to search for parallel usages, and Babelfish for a nice lazy crib on my side, it didn't get much faster.
I don't want to have to translate lots and lots of extraneous material for weeks and months just to find a few good passages for my public domain audiobook podcast, just as I don't want to spend that kind of time just to find a few good quotes from St. Albert the Great to help me write a hymn for his feastday. There's no percentage in that.
That's the difference between a text being available and a text being accessible. We have thousands of scholars out there who could do translations into English and thus stir interest in their chosen subjects. But noooo. That would be too easy.
And I know St. Albert is a charming writer. What about the writers I'd like and find helpful that I don't even know about? Must I always be restricted to what the scholars choose to give me, or waste my time doing duplicate work translating a language I don't know? And if I mistranslate a passage, no peer review is going to tell me. What if I propagate that error all over the Internet before somebody tells me I've misconstrued?
We need modern translations into English of just about every Latin and Greek text that exists, IMHO. If it's out there in a language they can understand, people will get a chance to like it. Keeping it in Latin means that only the subset of Latin scholars who are interested enough to put in the effort will ever read it and get a chance to like it.
Posted by: Maureen at Feb 9, 2006 9:37:51 PM
