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April 28, 2006

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Augustinianus

I came to back to Catholicism from Eastern Orthodoxy, where of course the Divine Liturgy is always celebrated with priest and people together facing *ad orientem.* I would challenge anyone to find Orthodox Christians who would say that they experienced this as the priest's "turning his back on them." It is at once thoroughly natural and extraordinarily powerful: we are all turned toward the Lord in adoration and supplication.

Nancy

What unfortunatly has been lost in the liturgy debate is that it never stopped being permissible to celebrate the new Mass ad orientam. For example, in Wawel Cathedral in Krakow, a freestanding altar was never installed so liturgies have always been celebrated ad orientam at the high altar.

Benedict XVI is well aware that the havoc created at the time of the introduction of the new Mass was due in some part to abrupt changes made with very little, if any, instruction and preparation. It might be safe to say that he is going to be very careful with the way any upcoming reforms are planned and implemented.

Agatha Faustina

I'm in the Catholic church since 2001. I have often been dismayed about how little cradle Catholics value their faith and liturgy. I've heard comments about the Church being "Protestantized". As a former Protestant this can't be a good thing.

I've though for some time now that it would be better if the Priest faced East. It would maybe change the "It's all about us" attitude about so much worship. And maybe that would serve as witness to the Protestants, whose congregations lots of times have the same attitude.

Maybe if only for the Eucharistic prayers.

Tom

I think Nancy is right. At Our Saviour in NYC during High Mass (Novus Ordo) after the procession and incensing of the alar, Fr. Rutler makes the opening Sign of the Cross in front of the altar, ad orientem, then he turns to face the people for the greeting. If the Asperges is used instead of the "I confess," he sings the first line of that prayer (which is continued by the schola) facing ad orientem (before proceeding to bless the people). Elsewhere in the High Mass he turns ad orientem again for the Kyrie and Gloria and Credo. When I first encountered it I thought it was perfectly right given the liturgical instructions.

Bender

we are all turned toward the Lord in adoration and supplication.

The inference from such a comment, of course, is that when the priest is "ad populum," we are not all turned toward the Lord. And such an inference is not only error, but grievous error. Before the priest "faces the people" while ad populum, he first faces the Eucharist -- he faces Christ. It is the Lord that is at the center, not the priest.

It would maybe change the "It's all about us" attitude about so much worship.

With the Eucharist on the altar, it is not "all about us"; it is about Christ. To be sure, it seems to me that it is all too many of the ad orientum advocates who have embraced an "all about us" attitude. Instead of spending so much time worrying about which direction the priest is facing, spending so much time fretting about whether he says this right or that right, or in the proper language -- essentially putting their own preferences and judgments ahead of participating in the Mass -- perhaps they should focus on and rejoice at Christ really being present amongst them.

It is just and proper that Christ should be, literally, at the center of the Mass, and not "over there in the east." Moreover, the priest is not just another participant in worship -- he is in persona Christi, and for that reason, it is further just and proper that he should face us. Besides, it is patently erroneous to state that everyone faces the same direction when ad orientum. People sitting in the transept see the side of the priest whichever way he is facing.

mulopwepaul

To say the priest acts in persona Christi does not mean that the priest facing us is Christ; it furthermore does not mean that the priest in persona Christi is offering his prayers and sacrifice to us.

PVO

Fr. Totton

Acutally Bender - and Lange makes the argument in the book - the Eucharistic prayer is directed at the Father - as the Eucharistic Elements (the Sacrificial Lamb of God) are offered on the altar are offered as Sacrifice to the Father - so nobody is saying "lets pray to Christ who is over there in the east somewhere" but rather "FATHER, accept THIS offering as once you accepted..." As far as the priest being "In Persona Christi" - in the context of the Eucharistic Payer, it is not for the purpose of the Lord speaking to the people, but rather for Him, who is both priest and victim (and head of the body) to offer himself to the Father!

Just to be clear - many make the argument that there is a connection between the on-axis tabernacle and Ad Orientem - such is only co-incidental. Ad Orientem would be just as valid and meaningful a gesture if the tabernacle were located in a side chapel, but most priests who would advocate and implement ad orientem celebration of the Eucharist would also be loathe to relegate our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament to a broom closet.

If you want a reasoned (and reasonable) understanding of what is being said here, go read Lange's book - DO NOT respond with knee-jerk emotions and talking points from the now-defunct post-vatican II liturgical establishment.

Maureen O'Brien

I really don't understand why what was good enough for the apostles, good enough for the martyrs, and good enough for nearly 2000 years of Masses, is not good enough for us.

Look, I grew up with the new way of doing things, and I don't hate it. But the more I read the Fathers, the more I see how important this facing East thing has been to the Church.

Just to give two examples:

The Christ in the east psalm bit was one of the prime Scripture verses quoted by St. Justin in his First Apologia which explained the basics of the Faith. Surprised the heck out of me. And the more I read this stuff (and I haven't even read that far in the Fathers), the more that verse keeps coming up.

St. Cyril of Jerusalem even brought it up in his first Mystagogical Lecture. There he was, explaining the baptismal promises and renunciation of the Devil. Turned out that back then, they had folks turn to the West and tell the Devil personally that they renounced him. West, because that was the opposite direction to Christ.

Like I say, I don't know much about this all. But if a tradition has been going on that long, and has meant that much to that many people, then I am certainly not comfortable about it being dropped. I want to know by experience what those folks got from facing East, towards the direction of the coming of the Lord.

"People, look East" and all that....

Richard

It's a great book. Readable as theological texts go.

I encourage everyone to run and buy a copy.

Agatha Faustina

Thank you Fr Totten for that point -during the Mass it is Christ mediating between us and the Father and it is a sacrifice. I learned something.



Jon W

That arguments like "he has his back to us!" sounded plausible to people at all demonstrates the problem with the pre-Vatican II church. Catechesis and faith must be cultivated together till arguments like that are greeted with a quizzical stare and comments like, "Well, if we're all one body with Christ, how could he have his back to his own body?"

Meggan

Facing East. Ok, that's fine. But what if your church was constructed in such a way that if the priest and the people faced East, they'd be sitting sideways in the pews and the priest would have his side to the people?

Stupid question, I know, but I was just wondering?

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