DVC: The Review

Which will be difficult because I am past caring...even as I am torqued. I guess I'm wishing I didn't have to care.

I'm not going to attempt to imitate the many delightful reviews that have been written so far - I agee with them, although it is really challenging to judge a movie like this objectively because, of course, I'm not objective, I'm depressingly familiar with the source material, and again...I'm not objective.

So, in terms of quality - the reviews are correct. It's a slow, plodding, faithful, paint-by-numbers adaptation, with a hollowness at the center which I blame mostly, aside from various directing choices on Tom Hanks. The more I think about it, the more cautious his performance is - it's as if the only way he knew to communicate "serious scholar" was to just not have any emotional life.

But anyway, that's really not what I'm looking at. What about the way that the Mess Which Is "History" is presented? And is it anti-Catholic?

The "history" is, of course, dreadful, just as in the book. What bothers me most is the total hash that's made of history. It strikes me that if you really, really, wanted to, you could do some sort of Priory of Sion nonsense story without just lying about everything around it. I don't get why you would want to do that, but in case you did, you probably could.

But..the list of lies told about history in this film echoes, naturally enough, the novel, and because it covers less, they stand out more. The lie that "the Vatican" was the power behind the suppression of the Knights Templar - well, the characterization of the Knights Templar, period. The flashback in this involved guys in big pointy hats watching Templars burn.

The most outrageous lies involved early Christian history, of course. What stands out are Teabing's assertion that 300 years after Christianity had been founded by this nice guy Jesus, the Christians grew in power to the point that they were starting to get belligerant to the pagans. They instigated violence. Oh, the Langdon character steps in and says something like "some say it was the othe way around," but you are left with the distinct impression that any violence during the era happened because the Christians were getting power and stated going after pagans.

This is unconsciounable. We are talking about facts here. This is more than just silly movie-making. It's a serious lie, akin to maintaining that Africans strolled on to slave ships because they wanted to go west.  There may be ambiguity about certain aspects of Christian history, but this isn't one of them. Tell Perpetua and Felicity, Blandina...Paul, Peter..the martyrs of Lyons, the victims of Diocletian. Real people who died horrible deaths are having their story twisted, perverted and forgotten so a bunch of empty-headed losers who evidently lack both brains and conscience can get even richer than they already are.

Despicable.

And it goes on, of course. Langdon and Teabing get into a shouting match about the Council of Nicaea - to tell the truth, aside from Silas' self-scourging, this inspires the most energy in the whole film. But amid the shouting and (regrettably brief) pandemonium-in-vestments -what will stick with the viewer is Teabing's version - that this was a controversial battle to establish the divinity of Jesus.

(I wonde if anyone who reads these scripts even cares a little bit about logic. But...the "Christians" up to this point were good because they didn't believe in Jesus' divinity, I thought...so they got all full of themselves and powerful before Constantine gave them power? But...??)

Isaac Newton is presented as another victim of "the Church," implying that "the Church" in question is RC, of course. It wasn't, and the Anglican Church, as far as I can tell, didn't have a problem with Newton, even though he had unorthodox ideas (being anti-Trinitarian and more of an Arian in terms of his Christology. I guess the oppressors forgot him somehow). The Church even accomodated him, not requiring him to take Orders, as was the norm for all Fellows of Trinity College.

The Leonardo business is very dramatically shown as Teabing uses his computer to move Mary Magdalene this way and that and proclaims the lie that the Bible establishes the existence of the Holy Grail. As he reached the climax of his discourse, a woman behind me emitted a "Hmmmm" as if to say, "Now that's interesting." Did I stand up and offer a lecture? Nope. Did I want to? Yup.

The Opus Dei material is appalling and almost seems like a "F-You" to the group. I'm serious. These people are not stupid. They've had communications from Opus Dei, they know the truth. They know that Opus Dei is not as it is presented in their movie. But they went ahead anyway. They just did not care. It's pretty stunning when you think about it.

And Mary Magdalene? As I pointed out in my first post, and as Fr. John Wauck has mentioned several times, the massive weirdness of the frantic search to find the super-secret whereabouts of the relics of MM is magnified by the fact that every year, crowds of people gather in a spot in Southern France on July 22 to do just that.

I only hope against hope that a healthy percentage of moviegoers leave this marveling at the illogic of it, discerning that if Mary Magdalene is a saint in the Catholic Church they must not have been trying too hard to "hide" her. That it makes no sense to mutter endlessly about the Jesus' mortal nature but then ascribe a sort of divinity to his wife just 'cause she's his wife. Who knows.

It is hard to say how this film will impact people's understanding of Christian origins. I'm not naive to think that every single person who sees it will be unaffected by the consistent, vicious anti-Catholicism and the total mischaracterization of the Christian story. There are just enough dates and certainties sprinkled throughout to make some viewers go "hmmm." We might also mention that the one who screams loudest about the Church's oppression of "the poor, women, people of color!" is screaming this as he's being arrested fo his various dastardly deeds - Teabing, of course. But I don't know if the significance will hit anyone - the whole thing is simply so logically garbled and mysterious-for-its own sake, that my intuition is that the points that will stick will be the biggest lies, simply because they are most forcefully presented: About Opus Dei, the nature of early Christianity as either a sweet faux gnosticism or power-mad killers, about the hsitoy of Christianity as simply one of oppression, of Mary Magdalene as a maligned secret.

And note to reviewers who blow off these historical lies as just all in good fun or even not strong enough, and hence, a cause of the film's tepidness.  Consistency Watch is up and running.

Comments

[sjthomas]

Thanks for the first-hand account, Amy. In the end we just have to remember that the Church survived Arianism. DVC is nothing in comparison.

[Clare Krishan]

Belated congratulations to your daughter on her confirmation! 'Shake the dust from your feet' and enjoy the consolations of family. I'll say a wee prayer that by the time you hear these words again in Mass, this will all be a distant memory! Rest assured you did the right thing, as USCCB footnote corroborates: "Remaining in the same house as a guest rather than moving to another offering greater comfort avoided any impression of seeking advantage for oneself and prevented dishonor to one's host. Shaking the dust off one's feet served as testimony against those who rejected the call to repentance.

[Furor]

Good review, Amy. I hope the "pandemonium-in-vestments" meme can live on in some positive way after this is all over. It's too much fun not to.

Also (not to criticise you; obviously you can't include everything), I wish more people would make a note of the utter BS that is the "Alexander Pope/Newton's funeral" conceit. Pope didn't conduct the funeral. He didn't even read the eulogy. It's doubtful he was even at the funeral. He wrote an epitaph for Newton years later, but that's about it. They certainly weren't "good friends," as Langdon insists.

Speaking as an English student and a great fan of Pope, I can say that this really bugged me, and I was not the only one to notice it. Somebody in one of the back rows said, somewhat loudly, "No he wasn't!" in a tone of genuine surprise when Pope was placed at that sombre event. There was a bit of a laugh at this.

What a weird event this movie has been.

[Gabriel]

Hi Amy Welborn,

reply to: http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/facts/fm0035.html

I just have to admire a person for letting us know about "The Da Vinci Code: The facts behind the fiction". I also have to comment on your somewhat misguided rendition. Let's just say your opinion for now.

So I'd like to rebuttal your opinions.

First I'd like to point out that the Vatican IS sitting on a library of books that add up to more than 50 miles if packed side by side as in any standard library. Never mind the catacombs underneath and other connected repositories. No-one gets to see these books and in most part not even cardinals and pope.
I had an uncle working there as a caretaker for over 15 years.
I also have family and friends all over the world, from many Religions and part of different societies.

The "allowed books" are available to select few that person must pass strict security measures and credentials. In order to see any allowed book one must know the title, background, content and may not carry with them any recording device other than a plain lead pencil and clean prescribed paper.
Well there goes 99.99% of library.

The Vatican and Roman Church has hidden much information from the public as a way to control it's followers. It is only recently that they started to allow access for very small part of it. Not too long ago even the bible was not allowed to be read by people unless they knew Latin or whatever language it was written in and person was part of Church hierarchy. That means you.

http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/vatican.exhibit/exhibit/History.html
and see attached picture BunkerRegistriSuppliche.jpg ... add approximately 100 times that number from other Church controlled places. To top it off 1000 times that number in private collections, other groups and other country coffers.

Only other way to see those records was/is to infiltrate the Church and
literally steal or copy parts from it at the cost of possible death. And yes, over time there have been many that have infiltrated the Vatican.

The same Church has been killing anyone who has disagreed with it for many centuries. Have been imprisoned, tortured, maimed, killed, decimated, so called converted, forced and harassed many tribes on this planet. As a matter of necessity people have turned to alternate ways of survival from such a tyrant.

=======
"What is The Da Vinci Code?"
It is a semi-fictional book made to make the average person think outside the box. It also hints at true origins of many opinions and facts.

Leonardo Da Vinci was a painter, scientist, inventor, humanitarian, cryptographer and much more in addition to being one really smart person. For his day an absolute genius. To think he was going to be suckered into being a "slave to The Church" or be killed by them would be to underestimate him greatly.

Of course he hid many things from them as did every smart person, many times right in front of their noses.

=======
"Is the Holy Grail really the "sacred feminine?""
"The legend of the Holy Grail has taken many forms throughout history, but it has always identified the Grail as the cup Jesus used at the Last Supper."

Huh? Where does it say that? It has only been "assumed" by the Church and by Church followers. Christian records say nothing of it being a "cup"!
But the English do: http://www.mystical-www.co.uk/grail/
The Grail/graal/ gradalis/sangreal etc. translated:
http://www.answers.com/topic/holy-grail

Please read revised and properly translated version of bible for a start. Then cross-reference with every other record known.
Oh I'm sorry, most of those references are locked in Vatican and can't be seen. To see Mason, Templar, Christian Jews, Egyptian, Ethiopian and many others you will need to become a member for many years, if they trust you.

=======
"Is the "Priory of Sion" a real group?
Yes and no. Not in sense of Pierre Plantard. History does give us a good hint of who though. Many ideas that Leonardo worked on were to save hardship of working class which Masons are a part of. He had contacts in many circles.

=======
"Does Da Vinci's The Last Supper really contain a code?"
Yes and no.
Lets start with no part: most painters of the time scribed their characters/subjects/outlines while undertaking such a large project. This can be misconceived as code. While other paintings do actually have a code underneath paint. On plaster it would have to be paint or painting it's self.

Now for yes: It is part of a code that extends to different locations. You will need to see those books in Vatican again. Alternately you will need to see Mason, Greek, Egyptian and Pagan records and know the amount of knowledge that Leonardo did. And some that will come out of hiding around 2010 through 2012.
BTW: That's also the time the Church is supposed to fall. Hmmm
And let's not forget: http://priory-of-sion.com/dvc/lastsupper.html

If that wasn't enough then why is person to Jesus' right in passive/subservient/pious stance with interlocked hands, with no beard yet?
I'm sure Leonardo, the perfectionist he was, would forget that all males of Jesus' day had to wear facial hair as being good Jews or face the consequences of public ridicule.

Why are all the people in painting distraught/agitated accept for Jesus and person to his right? Even Jesus has his right has tense but not person to his right. No malice at all from that person. Why do all the males in painting have protruding chins accept for person on right of Jesus?

In order for Jesus to know what's coming he had to have spies in Roman camp. That required Phillip and possibly Matthew to have breads shaved in this painting. All the other paintings of the time have beards accept person said to be John/Mary Magdalene. Again see books in Vatican for direct facts.

You must keep in mind that Vatican and surrounding area were also built on very specific and very accurate plans and down to the last minute detail. Hence the Obelisk in from of Vatican. Which by the way is originally a Pagan symbol. And no, it is not an invitation for converting Pagans to Christianity.

If that is Mary Magdalene in the painting we must see further references in Vatican again. Also need to see what John was doing at the time. Back to Vatican library again and many other records which tell explicitly.

If Jesus' blood line traveled to South of France there must be shipping records. Most are free at respective ports of call.

=======
"Who was Mary Magdalene according to the Scriptures?"
Even in bible it's obvious she was the only one fully entrusted with knowledge and very close to Jesus because she understood where the other Apostles didn't. For a woman to be that close in their day she "must" have been a wife or very close to being one. If not Jesus may have been stoned to death by his own people, as you may have seen in present day Afghanistan and other middle east areas. Women were priests on a regular basis.
A woman of wealth, means, lineage and power. Even back then Prostitutes made very good money yet nowhere does it say she actually was. For Jesus to become King of his people he must plan every little step and choose every person very carefully in order to leader and king to his tribe. Even some of his own people [Jews] wanted him dead.

Also you might want to ask the Vatican why they are so afraid of knowledge that is from the South of France. I have personally asked certain questions of priests, cardinals, rabbis and they all have squirmed and most ran for cover.

=======
"So, who is Dan Brown? He is a former English teacher who began full-time writing in 1996. His second novel, Angels and Demons, featured the Illuminati, a vial of anti-matter and a papal conclave. He holds no advanced degrees in religion."
Oh now you are just way out to lunch on this one!
In most part Dan Brown is correct and you should go and learn what history records say about this whole subject. Bible even states that the average dolt will understand it's writings.

Illuminati a vial anti-matter and a papal conclave? You are now talking about every major business, bank, insurance company, part of government in America and across the globe. I'm sure they like you talking this way.

=======
"What's the basis for Brown's views on Mary Magdalene and her competition with Peter?"
Oh you "do" have a way of taking things out of context.

It actually reads:
114. Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life."
Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven."

Which part of that don't you understand?

And for your information: every, and I mean every, scripture presented by Church to date is a copy of an original or previous copy. Only ones that are "not" copies are in stone and not included in The Roman Catholic Church and or Vatican. They are on public display or in private collections.

=======
"Gnosticism was a dualistic, esoteric mode of thinking that was widespread during the early Christian era, ...".
Ha ha ha, you make me laugh. It still is and is gaining much due respect among may Christians and people in general alike. It is closer to Christian Jew records than you may think.

Gnostic gospels are additional scriptures to bible that the Church decided to leave out because it didn't suit their authoritarian system. As were hundreds if not 1000's of others. Go see and study them and Vatican library.

The problem is that it is the Romans that are ones who adapted a form of Christianity to suit their means. I repeat Romans. This is why it's called the Roman Catholic Church. Get it yet?

True Christianity was punished via death by the Roman Catholic Church. True Christianity is mostly Jewish in nature. You will find these Christian Jews in many parts of the world. In many cases they alone hold the original facts of what went on during Jesus' time. Star studying. You may find what the Roman Catholic Church and anyone connected to them are deathly afraid of. And you may find Dan Brown is not too far off.

I do warn you; the Church you are part of will try to kick you out, chastise you, discredit you and probably much more. But I don't think these days they will try to kill you since it's not an accepted form of punishment any more.

=======
"Were Jesus and Mary Magdalene married?"
See above and Vatican records, True Christian records, Mason records, Jewish Communities and many others.

=======
"Are Mary Magdalene's bones buried within the glass pyramid structure at the Louvre, as Brown presents it at the end of his novel?"
Now this I do not know and will probably never be known since anything that goes into the Louvre does not leave it.

=======
"Dan Brown claims that the idea of Jesus' divinity was dreamed up by the Council of Nicaea. Is this true?
No. When you read the Gospels and the letters of Paul, all of which date from the first century, you see a clear affirmation of Jesus as Lord."

Dan brown is not too far off. A rightful king of that area was killed and "Jews" of the day needed to find a way to battle the Romans. What better way than to create a Martyr.
Or maybe you have missed the news these days on how the Arabs are doing it.

"... clear affirmation of Jesus as Lord."
Lord? Yes, he was The rightful king for that area and to Jewish tribes and that makes him Lord over his people. God? No, not of the planet, other regions, all of humanity or some other wild ideas.

He learned his miracle work same as Criss Angel http://www.crissangel.com/get.html . Pardon my plagiarism Criss Angel. May I remind you Jesus did study and travel in the East. Actually Jewish priests of the day could to similar as did Egyptians. He also learned many more things in order to be "rightful king" of that area. His Eastern type teachings were direct copies of what's leaned in such "far east" places.
Son of God/Gods? Yes. And so is everyone else on this planet.

"The Council of Nicaea in A.D. 325 was a response to the threat of the Arian heresy, which claimed that Jesus was a semi-divine creature, not of the same being as God."
There are many groups that have said Jesus is not same "being" as God. History tells us "religion" is famous for glorifying regular people to God status. According to all original tribes on this planet Jesus is not God and can not be as one. If he was he wouldn't need to become "dead martyr" to continue having power to take down the Romans and continue his lineage. Get with the program woman! Learn your history.

Unity of Christianity had no major problems and it still doesn't today, even though the Church sure tried to kill off all of them for heresy. Wow, what a resemblance the Church is to Hitler, Attila the Hun, Ghangis Khan and many more.

=======
"Brown indicates that the Gnostic Gospels were widely accepted in early Christianity and that Constantine ordered them destroyed. Is this true?"

Yes. See Vatican [Roman], Greek, Egyptian, Syrian, Turkish and many other records. To think that Constantine would just idly sit by as all that propaganda was spreading and causing him hardship and possible full revolts, even possible death is ludicrous. If you didn't realize by now it was WAR and one for survival of whole tribes and societies.
Maybe you are missing what's going on in that region right now between Jews and Arabs on TV or just a slight case of denial? Maybe you miss the fact that Jesus was a Jew?
By now I see you really need to get out more and do some basic research. Read "Art of War by Sun Tzu" and "The Prince by Niccolo Machiavelli" for starters.

=======
"So, the whole "Mary vs. Peter" thing isn't true?"
To think that everything was peachy between the apostles is another case of denial. Read your bible woman. A number of times Jesus protects Mary in your own bible.
Maybe start working in any business or agency that's at war with another and see how far you get without hassles from people you're supposed to be working with.

Many times it is said in scriptures that Jesus had to settle disputes between his own people. Did you read the bible at all before posting such drivel on the Internet?
Study your basic human nature for a start and maybe work your way up to historical texts.

"This whole thing should fade pretty quickly, shouldn't it?"
It better not. The repressed people of centuries are starting to come out with their records to set the Church on it's ass for being such heretics and hypocrites.

"Oops!
One of Brown's scholars says, "As the prophesied Messiah, Jesus toppled kings, inspired millions and founded new philosophies." We'd like to meet those toppled kings."

Oh, and what do you think happened to any king that opposed the Church? Did you ever bother to read any history of last 2000 years of Europe and Middle East and how any kings opposed to Church were deposed, killed, poisoned etc.?
Which part of "inspired millions" didn't you understand? Maybe you missed the evangelists, millions of Christians worldwide, splinter religions, new age religions, and many more.
"founded new philosophies" And how many Christian type religions are there now? How many tribes have been forced to adopt the bible? Oh, and what happened to the natives in America by the Church?
Maybe you missed the part how they were forced to adopt the bible and how they learned to mix in their own ways into forced Christianity?

"The Emperor Constantine did not make Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire in A.D. 325. It happened under Theodosius 50 years later."
Yaaaaa! finally you get something right.

"Gothic architecture was not "masterminded" by the Knights Templar, a medieval military order that had nothing to do with the construction of Gothic cathedrals."
Wow, which planet do you live on? Knights Templar were warrior priests/monks specifically sanctioned to do Church's dirty work. There are many descendants still around. Go ask them. Templars were heavily into trade, protecting roads, trade routes, also trading goods and information and anything they got their hands on. Only a small percentage was killed off while the rest blended into populace.
Knights Templar were getting too powerful, even for the Church and were disbanded while good number killed in initial assault while others were hunted and killed. Your last name suggests your ancestors may be some of them.

"The Church did not burn 5 million witches during the Middle Ages. During the period 1400-1800, an estimated 30,000-50,000 people accused of witchcraft (20 percent of whom were men) were executed by Catholic and Protestant institutions and governments."
Oops is right. You messed up big time.

More than 67,000 were recorded killed in Spain, France and Italy alone. Another 1,100 to 5,000 Templars that could be as high as 9,000, up to 500,000 regular citizens in many countries and many more unrecorded. Some numbers have it up to 1.5 million people in all within 1400-1800 in large part of Church controlled lands. For all of Church history and it's supposed Christendom it definitely is about 5 million and maybe much more taking to account wars started and fought by Church.

Quit trying to sweep facts under the rug.

Unless you actually read and understand the scriptures [that's all of them not just the bible], historical records from all over the world, secret societies and records they hold, read good part of Vatican library and how they all interact and cross reference, then learn politics, war, and all that goes along with leading a country/tribe you really don't know very much and definitely not enough to post such silly drivel.

You, as a writer, should at least to do proper research so you don't look silly in front of everyone.

Regards,
Gabriel
~Å~
Tai' Chi Master, Network & Systems Analyst, Propulsion Systems Engineer, Historian, Phd BA QC

[numquamsatis]

Dear Amy,
Thank you for your review. At the beginning of your review, you confessed that you were not objective. May I suggest that it's a common "faux" sense that we should judge and criticise in "perfect objectivity." No, we should discern in the light of Truth, not in objectivity. Objectivity implies that we stand in equal distance between good and evil and that is not where Truth would be found.
I'm glad you didn't judge from an objective point of view: you told the Truth, that is much more useful and rewarding.
Thank you again.

[Lori Pieper]

Yes, it is strange that Teabing, the one who does the most mud-slinging at the Church for its lies, conspiracies, cover-ups and murders, is in the end revealed to be: a liar, a conspirator who engages in cover-ups, and a murderer!

Dan Brown, equal-opportunity mudslinger . . . maybe he doesn't care in the end what the conspiracy is about, as long as there is one.

[Sue Sims]

Dear Gabriel Teacup master (or whatever)

May I just point out that the rules which prove the Vatican Library to be a Massive Conspiritorial Cover-Up also prove the British Library and the Bodleian Library, Oxford (the two most important libraries in the UK) to be fully paid-up members of the same mass conspiracy? Just try getting a reader's card for either, and you'll find the same rules about access, about copying, etc, etc. At the Bodleian, you even have to read out an oath about what you're not allowed to take into the Library ('naked flame' is the best one). Admittedly, I don't mind this, being a reader at both libraries and therefore (by your reasoning) part of the conspiracy.

I shan't bother to deny or refute your other points, because it's time for me to go to leave for Mass to prove that I'm part of this appalling conspiracy.

[Furor]

The more people complain about how "the Church" "wouldn't let" "anyone" "read the Bible for themselves," the more I come to think that maybe that was a pretty good idea.

I mean, people reading the Bible for themselves (and I mean "for themselves" in every sense of the word; emphasize any syllables you like in there, and I mean it) in vernacular English has produced Benny Hinn, John Hagee and Fred Phelps, among others, and keeps producing more like them with every passing hour. What is lightly referred to as "Evangelical Christian culture" is the direct result, if these complaints I keep hearing are true, of The Monolithic Church relaxing His iron grip on the Bible.

If this is true, I am more dismayed by this tragic lapse in Bone-Shattering Authority than I am in the sad revelation that this Authority was ever claimed in the first place. Think what we could have been spared!

Thank you, Gabriel, for opening my eyes.

[Greg Long]

Gabriel's comments seem much like DVC.
Throw enough lies and innuendos about and perhaps the suckers will believe some.
Verbiage does not imply knowledge, let alone wisdom.

[Donald R. McClarey]

"You, as a writer, should at least to do proper research so you don't look silly in front of everyone."

Troll Gabriel, that is a classic example of projection.

[Anna]

Margery Eagan, a columnist, sums up the appeal which this book and film have for many "Catholics":

"I liked the movie much more than critics did, too. Here’s why: It reminded me that for the rigidly orthodox Catholic it was “my way or the highway” way back in 206 A.D. And it’s still “my way or the highway” now."

For her, it all boils down to women priests and sexual doctrine.

[Tim Ferguson]

Thanks Gabriel, for pointing out the massive amount of work that needs to be done. You seem articulate and have a good deal of facts at your disposal. That someone like you has fallen victim to such a scam and a sham view of history shows how slyly deceptive this stuff can be.
Now, like Sue, I need to get ready for Mass, where I'll be sure to pray for you and others like you.

[Attilla the Nun]

I was "invested in" the DaVinci Code materials for about 10 years now, studying secret societies, conspiracies and the like has been a hobby of mine for a lifetime. And when Dan Brown's books started coming out I adored them all as great reads. { forget the merits, or lack thereof, of the reality...they ARE great fictional reads.}

And I worked with three churches to prepare teaching series over the past few months.

The long preliminary was to THANK Gabriel for his post, which took a LONG time to compose and post. Gabriel is a perfect example of the "post Christian educated mind" which we as Christians want to treat as a minority, when in fact, they may actually BE the majority in Europe right now, and shortly here in the states.

THAT is what we are contending with, THAT represents what is teaaching our kids in Universities and Colleges, and THAT is the person that we fail to reach.

Now having THAT person here, is a blessing, for it actually illustrates the world, the reaction, and WHY the DaVinci Code book, both in hard and softcover, has sold 45 million or more copies.

If WE, as "knowledgeable" Christians, cannot engage that personality, patiently work with him to an accurate understanding, that personality will never become a Christian, nor will that personality ever stop trying to undermine Christianity.

I'm glad such a person showed up, to clarify and illustrate WHOM the DaVinci Code was written to....

[Epovick]

Dear Amy,

Thank you so much for your work on the DVC. I know you would rather be elsewhere (scissor cutting the lawn, having a root canal, listening to old Wayne Newton records, etc), but your sacrifice is noted and appreciated.

On behave of Michael, the Archangel, Joan of Arc, and all the other saints: God Bless You.

Epovick

[Ed the Roman]

Attila,

If Gabriel is an example of the post-Christian educated mind, post-Christian education has abandoned both grammar and rhetoric as subjects to be taught.

I am also mystified both that he has found the time to study Tai Chi, computing and networks, propulsion engineering and the law AND that in the course of all this learning he never encountered the notion that the argument from authority is commonly considered the weakest.

[JMG]

Editorial (not an Op-Ed) in the Philadelphia Inquirer, directing viewers to the real story which can be found in the works of...Elaine Pagels!
"Admit it. No matter how many slams from elite film critics it gets, you're probably going to go seeThe Da Vinci Code. (Unless, of course, you're in the camp that regards the Ron Howard film as actually the work of Satan.)

In the film, you'll no doubt hear some of the arcane chatter about the early Christian church that author Dan Brown used to give his mega-selling potboiler a veneer of seriousness.

Brown has claimed his book was "meticulously researched." Sure it was, in just the same way The Colbert Report is meticulously researched: Take some facts, then twist them any way you can for entertainment's sake.

But if the film's talk about the role of women in the early Christian church, and Mary Magdalene's function as a symbol of that role, piques your interest, you might want to know the name Elaine Pagels.

She's an authentic scholar on the topic, working just up the road at Princeton University. Her books include The Gnostic Gospels and Adam, Eve, and the Serpent. Her views on women and the early church remain controversial, but she presents in responsible, readable fashion the evidence that Brown has mangled to best-selling effect."
http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/14614600.htm

[Epovick]

As I was reading Amy’s evaluation, I kept thinking that I would no longer have the patience to deal with these DaVinci believers; that if I met one, I would simply deck them. After Gabriel’s posting, I now feel pity for them. Where does one begin with such lunacy? Perhaps with a prayer. . .

[HA]

"I'm sure Leonardo, the perfectionist he was, would forget that all males of Jesus' day had to wear facial hair..." -- Gabriel

No, he'd never do that. Here's Leonardo's depiction of John the Baptist. Apparently, while rummaging for locusts and wild honey out in the desert, John stumbled across a few Schick razors and cans of Barbasol (and maybe some Pantene Extra Hold).

[Dan]

Attila,
Your post was excellent. I might just paste it on my wall to better remember the task at hand.

[Jeff H.]

Short Takes -

Hiaku & U

The Da Vinci Code
Ratiocinating amok
Hell's gates prevail not

Opie Deus ...
Oopsie Daisy ...
Opus Dei

Tom Hanks
No thanks
Ron Howard
Fiction coward
Teabing?
I'll take
Gandalf

[midwestmom]

Ebert & Roeper gave it two thumbs up. Wha? And I believe Ebert said how great Tom Hanks was for the part and that the movie was better than the book because Ron Howard is such a great director.

What whores! (=

[midwestmom]

"If WE, as "knowledgeable" Christians, cannot engage that personality, patiently work with him to an accurate understanding, that personality will never become a Christian, nor will that personality ever stop trying to undermine Christianity.

I'm glad such a person showed up, to clarify and illustrate WHOM the DaVinci Code was written to...."

Personally, I think "Gabriel" is a plant. Something about his post just doesn't ring true, starting with the salutation. I wouldn't be surprised if someone's been charged with running interference on the blogs of DVC's most outspoken critics.

[David R.]

Gabriel's post had to be the funniest post I've read on this blog for a long time!

[Donna V.]

HA, but of course, the Church wants you to believe that's John the Baptist! It's really another portrait of Mary Magdelene, who apparently belonged to the Galilean Fitness and Racquetball Center and developed some really rad biceps as a result. Just another fact covered up by the woman-hating Church, in its quest to deny female upper-body strength,...,Thousands, no millions of health clubs suppressed throughout the Roman Empire, scores of women burned at the stake for the sin of bench-pressing,..., aerobic dance classes outlawed,...,a tragic tale.

[Rosemarie]

+J.M.J+

>>>If WE, as "knowledgeable" Christians, cannot engage that personality, patiently work with him to an accurate understanding, that personality will never become a Christian, nor will that personality ever stop trying to undermine Christianity.

In my experience, people like Gabriel have their minds made up, and all the patient explanation in the world won't convince them otherwise. Go ahead and try, though, if you like. Don't let me discourage you.

>>>If Gabriel is an example of the post-Christian educated mind, post-Christian education has abandoned both grammar and rhetoric as subjects to be taught.

When someone begins a treatise with the sentence, "So I'd like to rebuttal your opinions", you can tell right away that he is truly learned. What a breathtaking example of English as it has never been spoken before - surely, it takes a great mind to accomplish such a feat!

(I could be mistaken about that, though.)

In Jesu et Maria,

[chris K]

The sad element in Gabriel's "research" is that it eliminated any trust in the activity of the Holy Spirit of God/Truth in these oh so many centuries. Since Peter the rock, this darn Catholic Church has been permitted to continue to weave its Truth throughout all generations, rising again and again after much more than Gabriel's little poisoned arrows. I know, it's because that Spirit has been locked up in massive buildings, under lock and key all this time...completely helpless...until...Gabriel arrived to slay the dragons and free God. Please Gabrial, go to His rescue since He appears to be quite helpless in your eyes...or perhaps in the interpretation of the "revisionist" bible you recommend. That Spirit needs to go back to Eagle Scout trail blazing 101 or something. Alas we have no more reason to hope in those holy words of the Christ...that after leaving us, that same Spirit's Presence would take over to guide us always in the Truth. What a failure THAT'S been now for centuries!

And that Leonardo...having to wait all this time for technology to place Mary in her proper spot at the Last Supper. Otherwise she'd just be left flirting with that other guy....Leonardo's ideal vision of the divine feminine....the ultimate virtue of his goddess...that tried yet true FICKLENESS of women! Still can't make up her mind. Makes you wonder just how many good men in that little group she "adored" and, shall we say, latched on to! Hmmm...just whose blood line was REALLY hidden!!

[Wilma Tyndale]

As usual the truth falls through the middle.

Can anyone blame unbelievers for accepting the Da Vinci Code conjecture that the Roman Catholic church has LIED for CENTURIES? Satan has made good use of Rome's endless sins, to create doubt in the mind of millions even as to the origins of Christianity.

While Catholics wail about this movie, their own religion carries its errors, Roman Catholicism has its own brand of "divine feminine" going on right now with the Marian apparitions and call to turn Mary into the Co-Redemptrix. "With" still means on the same level. As for the Gnosticism and paganism--Romes interreligious dialogue, including Zen Master Jesuits and Cardinals praying to "Allah" is just par for the course.

Dan Brown is just making use of the fact that Rome has NO MORAL AUTHORITY left, all unbelievers have to do is look at the news, read about the endless pontifical secrets", "suppression of evidence", and claims of "diplomatic immunity", and they know even the Mafia looked honest and forthright next to the Vatican.

One doesnt need to even argue about "conspiracy theories" or a library with secret tunnels: to realize Rome has always been a secretive institution and remains so to this day.

The problem is this: The world does not believe in Gods Word, which God promised to preserve, they look to "history" and try to GLEAN the truth from endless fallible [yes that includes the Pope] human institutions. Study of Gods Word, one realizes how the Bible is seamless--you are NOT fooled by Gnostic Gospels that have Jesus pushing playmates off of roofs or having children.

They ALL are trying to put it together withOUT Gods "instruction manual" and failing miserably.

Psa 119:105 NUN. Thy word [is] a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

[Donna V.]

Rosemarie: Your comment shows insufficient respect toward a man who is a "Tai' Chi Master, Network & Systems Analyst, Propulsion Systems Engineer, Historian, Phd BA QC"

My,my, not only a PhD, but a BA and a QC! (Doesn't QC stand for "Queen's Counsel?" Is Gabriel a barrister as well? Lord, there is no end to this man's talents!) Let us all bow our heads! Quite a few highly educated people are regulars on this blog, but alas, none of us can call ourselves engineers,systems analysts AND historians! Not to mention the qualification that Gabriel lists first: "Tai' Chi Master."

Why, that's almost as impressive as "Harvard Professor of Symbology."

[Dan]

Think how cool this would be: Opus Dei sues Sony for defamation, wins, and is awarded as damages all profits, or some percentage of revenues, from the film. Da Vinci Code fans would then have the pleasure of knowing that some of the money that they paid to see the film went to Opus Dei. It will never happen, I know, but it would be neat if it did. (I'm not sure though why Opus Dei wouldn't have a defamation claim. I don't know very much about defamation law, but the little I do know suggests, based on what I've heard about the movie and book, that Opus Dei has a case: it is falsely accused of criminal conduct and the defamation was made with knowledge of its falsity. Even if there were liability though, I suppose damages would be hard to prove.)

[Annalucia]

David R, you mean you actually waded all the way through ``Gabriel's'' post? You have way more stamina than I have.

And who ever said that Ebert and Roeper had good judgment with regard to movies? I remember that Ebert raved about the first ``Harry Potter'' movie (which was awful - none of the book's wit; just a lot of explosions) and disliked ``The Fellowship of the Ring.'' If you want to read intelligent movie reviews, I recommend Joe Morgenstern in the Wall Street Journal.

[Jason]

While Catholics wail about this movie, their own religion carries its errors, Roman Catholicism has its own brand of "divine feminine" going on right now with the Marian apparitions and call to turn Mary into the Co-Redemptrix.

Thanks for bringing this up. I've thought this is one of the more stupid DVC myths, that the Catholic Church hushed up Mary Magdalene to create a male-dominated Church. Who is the greatest in the Church (beside God)? Not the Pope. Not the Priests. Not the Deacons. But the Mother of God. A woman. If the Church was so vehemently opposed to women, why isn't St. Joseph honored as the "image of the Church" instead of Mary?

[Donna V.]

Perhaps Gabriel would like to point us toward some of his published works. A man so brilliant must have published something. Even if it's " The Idiot's Guide to Tai' Chi"

I, for one, would be interested in seeing exactly what qualifies him to list "historian" as one of his titles. Being interested in history (especially spurious anti-Catholic conspiracy theories) does not a "historian" make. I went deep sea fishing once; that does not make me a "marine biologist."

[Bruce]

I live in Halifax, NS Canada. Ron Howard gave an interview on CBC news this morning. I always wondered what Howard’s motivation for making the Da Vinci Code movie was. Although Howard and the interviewer do not mention the Catholic Church it is obvious who they are referring to. Howard believes that Catholics are mindless robots who do not have the capacity for critical thought or intellectual investigation. They believe what they are told to believe .The movie and the book will open their minds. He also said that the book changed his life however he refused to answer any questions about how it did or answer any questions about his faith. He also agreed with the interviewer when she said that only in the modern world today are people questioning their faith! Totally ignorant of 2,000 years of history. I guess they believe that serious questions of faith only began in their lifetime.

“Tolerance is the virtue of a man without convictions”

“The Catholic Church is the only thing which saves a man form the degrading slavery of being a child of his age”

G. K. Chesterton

[JonathanR.]

"Tai' Chi Master, Network & Systems Analyst, Propulsion Systems Engineer, Historian, Phd BA QC"

This guy probably works for an outsourced call center firm. He writes like one who would be making idiot boards and intruction manuals for those guys in India asking you if your computer is turned on.

The titles are probably about as real "Dungeon Master Fourth Level". Some insecure folk like their titles.

For example:

"There are many groups that have said Jesus is not same "being" as God. History tells us "religion" is famous for glorifying regular people to God status. According to all original tribes on this planet Jesus is not God and can not be as one."

A real historian would be hard-pressed to validate the term "original tribes", unless he was a Mormon genealogist. Also, I doubt anybody with a respectable degree would make so many grammatical errors.

BTW, Lotus Master, is your personal computer turned on? Plugged in? Is your word processor running? Have you tried the spell checker function?

[midwestmom]

Hey Wilma,

In case you didn't hear, DVC is FICTION! Why give your full 'real' name and use a bogus email address?

Gabriel, Wilma....they're all plants.

[Kevin Jones]

This piling up of the Christian Church's sins, real and imagined, has made me reflect more on more on a remarkable line in the creed: "we believe in the forgiveness of sins." No one claiming merely "moral" authority can truly believe in forgiveness, since moral authority today only lasts until the press finds one counter-example of the unforgivable sin, hypocrisy, after which one's reputation is eternally sullied and one's authority is eternally forfeit.

Many of those who reject Christian orthodoxy reject the idea of sin, and with this rejection, they also reject forgiveness of sins. No wonder every claim is automatically suspect, every plea for forgiveness considered a cynical power-grab.

[Maureen]

You know, it's amazing how many people want to go to Elaine Pagels, when they could go to primary sources instead. Especially since pretty much all the primary sources on Christianity (and Gnosticism, too) are easily available on the Internet.

But then, reading primary sources requires a little bit of work. And thinking for oneself, instead of swallowing pre-digested academic baby food.

[Donna V.]

Why give your full 'real' name and use a bogus email address?

Because we're just like the Mafia, that's why. Opus Dei priest Fr. Sonny Corleone might track her down if she leaves a real email addy.

Kevin Jones makes a very good point:

Many of those who reject Christian orthodoxy reject the idea of sin, and with this rejection, they also reject forgiveness of sins.

I would modify that somewhat: sins committed by white Christians are never forgiven. Sins by non-European, non-Christian cultures are quickly forgiven or held not to be sins at all.

DVC strikes a chord with so many people because we live in an age when the West has lost all confidence in its' own cultural traditions and our elites are filled with self-loathing. The Roman Catholic Church is the West's oldest institution - so it must be discredited and its' history distorted, in the same way as the history of America has been distorted and presented as nothing but slavery and racism and oppression.

Destroy the foundational beliefs of the Church and you eliminate any compelling reason for following a Christian code of ethics.

[Mark]

Gabriel's post is a trip. But I run into what seems to me like a lot of people who lean toward the Gabriel school of thought, perhaps without the absurd degree of "depth."

Conspiracies and doubt on all sides, and a belief that a person's accrued tidbits of arcana constitute a "real" knowledge of what actually is going on under the surface. It's such a conceit that *a common person* might actually have somehow educated him/herself into actually understanding super-secret mysteries on other continents.

What has wrought this heightened sense of self-importance combined with overwhelming doubt? Is it modern culture? Is it governmental behavior in Vietnam? Watergate? Mass media's ongoing overreporting of every potential and real misdeed happening everywhere, so it seems the whole world is a sneaky, malevolent, horrific place? Terrible public school education that teaches kids only an almost mythic history of the U.S., which they then find is woefully thin when they learn more as adults? Vanity generated by the illusion of central position in our childhoods falling short in adulthood?

This seems like the true legacy of Postmodernism: (I) can't believe in anything I'm told I should believe in; I should research everything, but because I lack the time, resources, intelligence and access to properly research to an appropriate conclusion, I'm left with lame conclusions and a shadow of lingering doubt over everything. And I actually am bound to doubt even the sources I can get my hands on. Not to mention that I've been told "faith" is a sham, so I'm not even allowed as a modern-person-in-good-standing to actually have "faith" to lead me to the proper conclusions in religious areas.

Well, that's my 2-bit theory.

For my part, I'll follow the orthodox views and read the scriptures and the Fathers.

Mark
Intermediate 14th-level keyboard ninja, BA MA jr. historian, GITS, Michiganian, SSB-initiate, Media conspirator

[Jeanne]

I heard a funny comment the other day. They said that if the DVC was solved it may lead to where Jimmy Hoffa is buried.
I laughed out loud.

[austin]

I'm really tired of hearing "its just fiction" by observant Catholic laity and priests.
It reminds me of adolescents who are 'too cool' to show they care, because they care so much what everyone thinks. The "it's just fiction" types are cultural blend-ins afraid they might not sound fashionably current if they voice an objection.

[simon]

As the fruitcake posts above by Gabriel and Wilma/RealityHits/Attila the Nun illustrate, the Da Vinci Code is in some ways a manifestation of liberal Protestantism in its death throes. The Christian faith is gone, but the bitter anti-Catholic animus remains.

History has always been an awkward subject for Protestants, there being no historical evidence of anyone believing or practicing anything remotely akin to Protestantism before the 16th century. This forces people who oppose historical Christianity (Catholicism, Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy, etc.) down one of two roads:

1. The high road: Argue that history doesn't matter. All Christians got it wrong until Luther and Co. showed up and started reading the scriptures out of context and in translation.

2. The low road: Make stuff up. Attribute any Catholic or Orthodox doctrine you don't like to "Constantine" or some "medieval superstition." When the historical facts contradict this attribution, just scream that all the facts must have been meticulously altered by those crafty Romanists, who are engaged in the greatest cover up in all of human history.

A certain strand of Protestantism (such as the guy who trolls in various threads here arguing in ALL CAPS that he has STUDIED the Bible for FOUR whole years and therefore ANYONE who disagrees with him is UNBIBLICAL and DISGUSTING!!!) has been taking this Low Road for generations. For example, huge numbers of "Bible Christians" (and quite a few Catholics who drink in much of that culture) take it for granted that the first Christians were non-sacramental, non-hierarchical and non-liturgical. Somehow sacraments, bishops, and ceremonies must have been imposed on the Church at a later date, despite the embarassing absence in the historical record of any Christians ever objecting to such "innovations". Let's just say Constantine did it.

Dan Brown and his half-educated acolytes are now following the same well worn path, this time shorn of any pretence of devotion to Jesus Christ.

[Scherza]

Not that I think Gabriel's coming back to read this, but...

The reason there's an obelisk in front of the Vatican is because the obelisk was there in the pre-Christian Roman period. Several obelisks were taken from Egypt as spoils of war by the Romans and were frequently placed in public places (there's one in front of the Pantheon, another in the center of Piazza Navona, and yet another in front of Santa Maria sopra Minerva). The area around the Vatican was an arena at the time of Peter's ministry in Rome, and the actual hill upon which the present-day Basilica of San Pietro is located was a Roman cemetary. Peter was executed by crucifixion at the arena, and he was buried in the nearby necropolis.

The Church has preserved the obelisk in Piazza San Pietro because we believe it may have been one of the last things Saint Peter saw. Later popes ordered the Egyptian hieroglyphs sanded off of the obelisks, feeling that it was not appropriate to have praises to pagan gods in that place. Nothing sinister at all!

By the way, you can go down into the excavations below the main basilica and tour the Roman necropolis, including the original tomb of Saint Peter and the spot where the bones presumed to be Peter's were found.

[Katie]

The Philly paper editorializing that Elaine Pagels should be read as a corrective to the misrepresentations in the Brown book & movie takes the cake! She's just more of the misleading, misquoting (see recent exposure of misquoting Ireneaus) same.
BTW, since when do editorials promote and puff authors?

[Kevin P. Edgecomb]

Gabriel: You...should at least to do proper research so you don't look silly in front of everyone.

Tu quoque!

Thousands of people now think you look silly.

[jdkelly]

Ron Howard. Opie Dei?

[Bill]

Gabriel's post is an example of someone accepting every far out opinion out there. Some of the things he says are true and he uses sophistry to defend the rest. I don't thing we should be alarmed by the book and the movie. We can do a much better job than him in insisting that our church fulfills its mission. And that mission is always, as Jesus insisted, is to favor the poor,the sick and the crippled.

The DVC is a gripping novel that strings a lot of events and theories together. The subjects such as Jesus, Magdalene, Da Vinci, Masons, knights, crusades, great paintings all contribute to the interest. Some good discussion can come out of it. As always one's faith is not dependent on public approval or acceptance. Certainly Jesus would have never made it with that criteria.

[Wilma Tyndale]

"As the fruitcake posts above by Gabriel and Wilma/RealityHits/Attila the Nun illustrate, the Da Vinci Code is in some ways a manifestation of liberal Protestantism in its death throes."

Liberal Protetantism??? Sorry but I leave the liberalism up to Rome and its interfaith "daughter" churches.
Rome is joined at the hip with liberal Protestantism.

"1. The high road: Argue that history doesn't matter."

One thing Ive noticed is how Catholics gamble their entire eternity on "history".

Since I trust in God's Word, I pay attention to warnings like this.

1Ti 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: [so do].

Sorry to shock the Catholic intelligensia here, but history really doesnt matter. History is a mound of sand compared to Gods eternal unchanging Word.

One thing I have noticed on this blog, and its comboxes with the exception of the few Evangelicals that show up, NO ONE HERE EVER LOOKS to the BIBLE FOR ANY ANSWERS!

Im not shocked that Catholics are going ballistic over Da Vinci Code, why not if your entire religion rests on "history" instead of God's Word?

[Wilma Tyndale]

Ah the Obelisk...

There is another example of Rome tossing Gods guidebook aside and doing their own thing.

Keeping one of Satan's markers smack dab right in the middle of their giant sundial.

Rome ignores the endless commands in the Bible of what to do with pagan objects of worship.

Deu 12:3 And ye shall overthrow their altars, and break their pillars, and burn their groves with fire; and ye shall hew down the graven images of their gods, and
Deu 12:4 Ye shall not do so unto the LORD your God.

http://www.myrome.co.uk/rome/community-sites.htm

"The Vatican monolith made of red granite is 25.37 metres high and devoid of hieroglyphics. It was brought to Rome by Caligula and in 1586 Pope Sixtus V had it placed in front of the Basilica".

Anyone here remember what Caligua was all about? Go study up on him and then ask yourself why Rome would keep one of his disgusting symbols?

OBELISK. Of the several functions of the PILLAR among early peoples, the Egyptian obelisk was worshipped as the dwelling place of the sun-god.

Source: Illustrated Dictionary of Symbols in Eastern and Western Art by James Hall, published by HarperCollins, 1994, page 75.

You know even unbelievers can pick up that the Puzzle Palace [Vatican] has KEPT symbols of paganism that have NOTHING to do with CHRISTIANITY.

They can discern with their consciences--God given to everyone, that they are creepy and wrong. It isnt Bible churches being used as the settings for horror movies and "conspiracy" thrillers, its Catholics ones and there's a reason for that!

[Donald R. McClarey]

"Sorry to shock the Catholic intelligensia here, but history really doesnt matter."

Especially if history nocks all of your theories about the early Church into a garbage dumpster.

"NO ONE HERE EVER LOOKS to the BIBLE FOR ANY ANSWERS!"

Question Wilma: Which Church selected the books that are included in the New Testament? Hint: the name begins with a "c" and ends with a "c".

[Donald R. McClarey]

"nocks" should of course be "knocks".

[Donald R. McClarey]

"Anyone here remember what Caligua was all about? Go study up on him and then ask yourself why Rome would keep one of his disgusting symbols?"

Oh, probably because Catholics are neither the Taliban nor ignorant bigots.

[Ed the Roman]

'Doesn't QC stand for "Queen's Counsel?"'

Donna,

That's why I mentioned that he'd studied law. :-)

[Tony]

If WE, as "knowledgeable" Christians, cannot engage that personality, patiently work with him to an accurate understanding, that personality will never become a Christian, nor will that personality ever stop trying to undermine Christianity.

Sister Attilla,

"Gabriel" is as much a "true believer" (of this Da Vinci Pap) as Silas, the fictional, albino, S&M, fanatical, murderous "Opus Dei monk".

We can't "engage" them. We can't "discuss" with them. What we can do is pray for them which I intend to do this evening at rosary (proving I'm a part of the vast Vatican conspiracy).

[Bruce]

My first reaction to Wilma’ last post is What!!??

“ The Catholic position is that sola scriptura is non-scriptural. Let me put it plainly: The Bible nowhere states that the Bible alone is the sole rule of faith. The principle of sola scriptura is not found in Chriatian writings prior to the Reformation. The principle of sola scriptura is, in fact, an invention, to use the word some Protestant controversialists employ to describe peculiarly Catholic beliefs.”

Karl Keating

[Bruce]

My first reaction to Wilma’ last post is What!!??

“ The Catholic position is that sola scriptura is non-scriptural. Let me put it plainly: The Bible nowhere states that the Bible alone is the sole rule of faith. The principle of sola scriptura is not found in Chriatian writings prior to the Reformation. The principle of sola scriptura is, in fact, an invention, to use the word some Protestant controversialists employ to describe peculiarly Catholic beliefs.”

Karl Keating

[Mary Kay]

Dear Wilma (too chicken to use her real name) Tyndale (as in the Protestant publishing house),

If you had taken the time to read this blog before jumping in to make snap judgments, you'd know that the posters here are quite familiar with Scripture, from Genesis to Revelation.

[Mike Demers]

Amy,

What I fear is that the more money DVC makes, the more likely other movies will be made attacking the Catholic Church (and the rest of Christianity).

[Attilla the Nun]

---- If you had taken the time to read this blog before jumping in to make snap judgments, you'd know that the posters here are quite familiar with Scripture, from Genesis to Revelation. ---

Really?

Darn, I have been reading this blog daily for two years now. And the number of times that SCRIPURE has been used to SOLVE a problem presented, is about....about....no, exactly...

ZERO TIMES

On the two threads dealing with Maciel and the Legionaires, there are between the two of them, almost 300 replies.

The ONLY use of scripture to ascertain the problem, AND a "solution" were my use of scripture.

I have seen encylical's, canon law, and poets quoted, and a LOT of "well...I think..." type of posts, but never will the erudite and intellectual Catholic, pick up a bible, and see if the answers to these problems is contained in God's Word.

Just pride, hubris, arrogance...

And the best part, the spell checkers and grammar queens that think that if they can't critique the CONTENT, then darned well, they will tell you about your composition and spelling.

Shallow, self absorbed, myopic.

As my friend says..."They HAVE the church they tolerate and deserve..." and the more I watch the wringing of hands, pouting, finger pointing and blaming EVERYONE on the planet other than the people that are responsible for your problems, the Catamite Clan that is running the tourist trap on the Tiber.

[Wilma Tyndale]

Which Church selected the books that are included in the New Testament? Hint: the name begins with a "c" and ends with a "c".

The canon was well agreed upon way before Constantine had his false conversion and the bishop of Rome elevated himself to Pontifex Maximus. The NT was written by the apostles and NONE of them were Catholic.

""Anyone here remember what Caligua was all about? Go study up on him and then ask yourself why Rome would keep one of his disgusting symbols?"

Oh, probably because Catholics are neither the Taliban nor ignorant bigots."

So now its bigoted to be against Caligua?

Well dont that beat all....political correctness run amok even provides a mantle of protection for crazed incestuous debauched Roman emperors...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caligula

you'd know that the posters here are quite familiar with Scripture, from Genesis to Revelation.

So how come you never apply it to your lives, circumstances or the latest Catholic scandal?

I see a lot more posted about canon law on this blog then I do any Bible verses.

[David B.]

Amy,

I found some of the reviews of the DVC at Amazon.com by those who have gone to the movie this weekend. Here's one that was, um, interesting.

"i give both mr. brown and mr. howard 5 stars for their courage, humanity, and compassion in bringing some truth and perspective to an ugly and well-concealed part of history - the dehumanization of women and the horrors they have endured at the hands of the church and of ignorant, fearful, and intolerant men for centuries, as well as the HUMAN aspect of jesus! read your apocrypha, the dead sea scrolls, the nag hammadi, guys, and check dates - and then demand to know of the church why the REFUSES to accept it into canon!! because they had political and economic agendas - which is why they falsely tortured and executed millions of females for hundreds of years throughout the "western world" - from newborn infants to old women - and then confiscated their estates, their holdings, their status in their communites - some towns and villages where the ENTIRE FEMALE POPULATION was brutally annihilated!! and, YES, jesus was human, and NOWHERE in the apocrypha did jesus ever claim to be the Son of God or the Messiah! and NOWHERE in the apocrypha is mary magdalene referred to as a prostitute and as anything but an equal and treated with respect and affection! jesus was an avatar, a brilliant, magnificent human being - capable of loving a wondrous and worthy woman - and at a time when an unmarried hebraic male was considered an aberration - and from whom many of the so-called and very zealous "reviewers" could take a number of lessons in compassion, open-mindedness, and the humanity that jesus advocated!!"

But, just remember, we're being told it's "just fiction," "just a movie." Blech!!!

[Donna V.]

Wilma sez, "History? History is bunk! I'm ignorant as dirt and I'm proud of it!"

Interesting how representatives of the 2 most prevalent strains of anti-Catholic bigotry have popped up in this thread: gabriel, with his pseudo-intellectual post-modern P.C. gibberish and Wilma, a more traditional sort of Catholic-hater, the kind that leaves Jack Chick tracts at bus stops.

During times like this, it is always comforting to remember Matthew 16, 18:

And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.

And neither will the Dan Browns, the gabriels or the Wilmas.

[Bruce]

"The NT was written by the apostles and NONE of them were Catholic."
I suppose when Ignatius of Antioch was writing about the Catholic church it was a code word for The Peoples Front of Judea or was that The Judean Peoples Front.
By the way Wilma before you mention it I know Ignatius was not an apostle.

[Wilma Tyndale]

During times like this, it is always comforting to remember Matthew 16, 18:

And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.

This is Rock I depend on:

1Cr 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

I ask Catholics all the time, what is hell prevailing against the Catholic church? If wholesale corruption from the Pope on down and full scale apostasty including the total embracing of the interfaith antichrist global spirituality gospel isnt it-- What is? For now its just a meaningless slogan Catholics repeat to themselves like a mantra. One of the SAME SIX verses they repeat over and over IGNORING the rest of the Bible!

Bible churches dont have to worry about the Da Vinci Code fooling people. We have God's Word to stand on. For now Rome is merely battling someone else with another version of "history".

[Jeff H.]

I find it very sad that Christians are so busy tearing apart the Body of Christ when the secularism drivel and soon to be Eurabia are the two fronts of a war in which we are presently engaged.

Those blessed with a sense of history will be drawn, ultimately, back to Mother Church. But even Bible Christians should remember that St Paul said, "Faith, hope and love (charity - agape) abide, these three. But the greatest of these is love" (I Cor. 13).

[Donna V.]

So how come you never apply it to your lives, circumstances or the latest Catholic scandal?

Wilma, how do you know what we do or don't do in our lives and circumstances? Are you saying you're God Almighty and you can see into our hearts?

If you actually knew something about this blog (oh, but I forget: to you ignorance is a virtue), you'd know that Amy has written many times about the sex scandals. There's no coverup here and the posters here are as outraged as anybody else. One thing that may anger you, though - they generally want to see some evidence before rushing to condemn someone as guilty. That clearly is not your M.O.

Wilma, unlike you, I can't presume to see into your heart or life, but I can tell you, the image of a "Christian" you're presenting here is not attractive. Are you presenting yourself as a model of Christian love and charity? No, you sound like a sour,hysterical, rude woman who uses the Bible like a 2 X 4 to bash others over the head.

You can keep your brand of "Christianity," Wilma; you're not showing me anything I admire or want to emulate.

[Bruce]

1Cr 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Wilma, Paul is refering to Israel during the Old Testament times BEFORE Peter was chosen by Jesus.

I find it hilarious that a fundamentalist is lecturing Catholics on quoting certain verses and ignoring the rest of the Bible!!

[Tim F.]

Wilma apparently doesn't know the Bible as well as she thinks. She obviously has never read 1 Peter Chapter 3 verse 15.

[JoeInPA]

I couldn't resist getting in on this. I don't mean to dog-pile on Wilma, but one thing you keep coming back to really sticks in my craw. You've implied that all us good Catholic folks on this blog have been fooled by Dan Brown's work because we're not part of a Bible Church. Well I've been trolling this blog all day and I don't see anyone here who's been fooled into believing what Brown is dishing out. I know I haven't been. But there are folks out there who's faith isn't solid who are in danger of believing this nonsense. You give the impression that they should be written off.

I'm upset about the book and movie, not because I've been fooled by it, but because millions of others have. I can't speak for you, but I care about their souls. I've prayed for Dan Brown, as well as the producers and actors in the movie. I would love nothing more than the fact that they see the light as it were. I've prayed for those who have fallen for this drivel.

BTW, I think the anger that you sense by Catholics regarding this movie and book are not due to just one movie or one book. It's been the continuous assault against the Church. Does all that garbage "fool" me? Of course not, but if we don't counter it, who will? To be honest, it doesn't sound like you care to. Brown isn't just taking shots at the Church. He's taking shots at the divinity of Christ - he's saying that your beliefs are a sham, as well as mine.

Fooled? No. Ticked off? You bet. I'm tired of charlatans like Brown whittling away the faith of folks out there who've fallen for this nonsense. It just makes our jobs of bringing them the truth that much harder.

[Bruce]

“The NT was written by the Apostles and NONE of them were Catholic."

“Our critics, in condemning us, always argue in a circle. They say of medievalism that all men were narrow. When they discover that many of them were very broad, they insist that those men must have been in revolt, not only against medievalism , but against Catholicism . No Catholics were intelligent; for when they were intelligent they cannot really have been Catholics”

G.K. Chesterton

[tony c]

Recenetly I was reading through an account of some exorcisms from the 1800's. Found the document on EWTN.com somewhere.

In one of the accounts, they record the demon as confessing how fearful the devils are of St. Mary Magdalene, because of her perfect repentance. Fascinating.

In the Eastern Church, we call her "Equal to the Apostles", ya know. Same feast day: July 22.

BTW... In the Byzantine Catholic Church, today is the Feast of Sts. Constantine and Helen, Equal to the Apostles.

Christ is Risen!
Indeed He is Risen!

[Mary Kay]

Attila the Hun and Wilma the Publishing House (who I'd bet are the same person using different email addys) have provided the same sort of amusing entertainment as Brown's farce.

Attila claims to have read zero comments using Scripture, but I know I've used Scripture on multiple occasions as well as others.

Wilma, the reason why I'm not taking you seriously is Proverbs 18:2. If you would study Catholicism as a whole, rather than a verse out of context, even if you just read the Catechism (and all the Scripture verses cited as reference), you would see that there is indeed a solid reason for each and every piece of Catholic teaching.

[James Kabala]

Well, now there are two people (Ebert and Roeper) who liked both The Da Vinci Code and The Passion of the Christ.
Could someone expand on what Teabing's role is? I had assumed that he was one of the heroes, but Amy (and some others) have seemed indicate that he is at least partly a villain. What exactly is his role, and does it differ between book and movie?

[Gabriel]

WOW, I am almost dumbfounded.
I didn’t expect such a response on 1 simple reply to Amy Welborn’s article. Searched all over the internet and could not find her addy anywhere. That’s why my post in HER supposed blog.

The thing that irks me is that everyone else replied to something that was addressed to Amy Welborn but Amy Welborn. Seems like most of you people are running a gang bang here.

I really don’t give a hoot about your personal comments or feelings on the subjects that I brought up. Go find a shoulder to cry on or your priest. Maybe find a psychologist? This also proves just the kind of repercussions religious people will carry out and the Church has done since its conception.

Facts are what I’m interested in and I thank Scherza for her insight and knowledge. I will check it thoroughly.

I thank Sue Sims for information on UK libraries. My point still stands. Why are not average people allowed to see records and that should be free to the public? Do they think that we must be like dumb sheep to follow them no matter what? Do they contain evil spells that will make people into Martians?
Because forcing people as they have done in the past just doesn’t cut it anymore.

Eaxactly Maureen. Mind you there are lots of original sources if one has the means to travel, friends in areas of knowledge etc.

Thank you: HA at May 21, 2006 8:19:41 AM. Good one, now we are getting somewhere.

Good point Anna.

Thank you: Wilma Tyndale at May 21, 2006 6:01:00 PM: with your references to Obelisk are interesting, the rest of your comments ever more so. I have respect for a person that is not afraid to question and can make up their own mind.

As for leaving my real email or not, it’s SPAM prevention in same manner as Amy Welborn.

Donald R. McClarey: If history doesn’t matter than why did you even pick a religion that’s based heavily on history?

Tony c: Where is he risen? Where? Show me. Where? I wana see. Prove it!

As for the rest of you: I don’t see you correcting my comments with FACTS so it seems you are just blowing wind. I thank most of you for proving my point on the kind of religious babble that comes out of most [not all] religious people I talk to.

I didn’t know that many of you are such good Christians that you would use bible passages to attack your own. But that’s the real problem within any Church, politics and fundamentalists. I’d really like to see you do it in front of your own priest/preacher.

[Donna V.]

Attila the Hun and Wilma the Publishing House (who I'd bet are the same person using different email addys)

I have that feeling too. Their writing styles, (or should I say, their screeches) sound very similiar.

I was once very amused by a poster on a political blog who posted as 4 different people in order to make it look like he had backup and support. ("Bob, what you said about Bush is VERY true and let me add,..." "Phil, unlike all the other stupid people here, you REALLY get it!") The site owner, a computer geek, was able to reveal the 4 faces of "Bob."

If that's what's going on here, well, Attila/Wilma, it's not very Christian to deceive others, is it? Even online,...,

[Sr. Lorraine]

Wilma,
History matters to God. God became man in history, at a specific time, when the salvific moment had come.
God's word came to us through historical events. Your ahistorical belief does violence to the Bible, which did not spring out of eternity but was written at various times in history and collected at a specific time in history.

[Sr. Lorraine]

Gabriel said: "I have personally asked certain questions of priests, cardinals, rabbis and they all have squirmed and most ran for cover."
***
Gabriel, let's have some specific facts. Which cardinals did you meet? When? Where? What exactly did you say and what did they say?

I don't believe this ridiculous claim.

[Mary Kay]

Gabriel, if you had done any checking before shooting off that email to Amy, you would have know about this blog.

[Scherza]

Gabriel, a reason that many old libraries have such peculiar policies about who may use their resources and what may be brought into the libraries is that the resources in older libraries tend to be very unique, precious, and fragile. Ergo, making those resources freely available to any and all members of the public is impossible.

Inks and papers in antique texts can be damaged severely by light, moisture, contact with skin oils, and contact with products containing acid or lignin. When I've done work with archive materials, I've had to wear cotton gloves and sometimes even a surgical mask -- and the primary source materials I've used in research have only dated back a couple of hundred years. Even for those, I had to get several letters from professors and reading privileges from the university whose collection I accessed, and I had to explain why I needed to look at the primary source documents and couldn't just use a facsimile copy.

The Vatican's policies about what one can access and what one can bring into a reading room probably aren't to protect the contents of the archives -- they're more likely to protect the rare documents themselves.

[Donna V.]

Seems like most of you people are running a gang bang here.

Well,ya know, Gabbie, when you post something on an Internet blog, people have a tendency to comment on it. Especially when it is filled with psuedo-intellectual horse manure. I'm surprised Mr. Computer Programmer/Lawyer/Historian/PhD/BA/QC doesn't seem to have the brains to figure out that anti-Catholic post on a Catholic blog will draw attention. I mean, duh.

Thank you: Wilma Tyndale at May 21, 2006 6:01:00 PM: with your references to Obelisk are interesting, the rest of your comments ever more so. I have respect for a person that is not afraid to question and can make up their own mind.

Ha, Ha! That's hilarious. Wilma's a Bible-thumping fundie, Gabriel. Your stupidity does astound. You think Wilma's on your side just because she dislikes Catholics? You two share your historical illiteracy, but that's all you share.

Donald R. McClarey: If history doesn’t matter than why did you even pick a religion that’s based heavily on history?

History does matter. "History" that Dan Brown and you pulled out of your nether regions does not.

Tony c: Where is he risen? Where? Show me. Where? I wana see. Prove it!

Ah, doubting Thomas. Not that I expect that allusion to mean anything to you; since you clearly have never read the Gospels. You're all hot to debunk something you know nothing about.

PHD, BA, QC - yeah, sure. You sound and write like an 18 year old who thinks that, like, DVC is, like, the coolest thing ever.

[Donald R. McClarey]

"Donald R. McClarey: If history doesn’t matter than why did you even pick a religion that’s based heavily on history?"

Bizarre comment Gabriel. History is essential to the Catholic Church as it is the Church founded by Christ at a specific point in time, not a man-made religion based in myths. Wilma Tyndale was making the point that history was not important, and I suggested she held this view because a study of history reveals that the Church founded by Christ was the Catholic Church. History obviously means little to supporters of Dan Brown's fable as his tome is filled with historical howlers, and his whole thesis is at complete variance with all the historical evidence.

[Donald R. McClarey]

"The canon was well agreed upon way before Constantine had his false conversion and the bishop of Rome elevated himself to Pontifex Maximus. The NT was written by the apostles and NONE of them were Catholic."

Wilma, you are simply embarrassing yourself, but I assume you are too ignorant to realize this. The Catholic Church existed from the time Christ walked the earth. The term was first used in a writing that has come down to us by Saint Ignatius, a disciple of Saint John, in the year 110. The Catholic Church determined which books were placed in the New Testament and which were kept out in a lengthy process from 100-220. When you read the New Testament you are reading a Catholic document.

[Eileen R]

Gabriel:
The thing that irks me is that everyone else replied to something that was addressed to Amy Welborn but Amy Welborn.

Let me introduce you to this little thing called email.

[merchant snipe]

Disclaimer! The following comments will only make sense to blue water steam sailors and propulsion systems engineers!

Hey Gabriel,

You might want to think about warming up the turbine next time before you try to answer bells! And don't forget the air ejectors, spining turbines with out a vacuum is a terrible gland seal to waste!

[Sue T.]

Gabriel--If the Vatican had documents in its library that it wanted to hide and suppress, why would it bother to even keep them around? Wouldn't the Vatican just destroy them?

Wilma--I admire your love for scripture. However, my difficulty with sola scriptura is that people tend to interpret the bible differently. Even bible churches have differences on a variety of issues. For example, some churches believe in the rapture, some don't. Some belive in infant baptism, others don't. So who's right?

As Catholics, we believe that scripture should be read in light of Tradition. I don't see what's so bad about that.

Also, I know you might be angry at all of us commenters on this site who disagree with you. However, we Catholics really are nice people! :)

Wilma, at least we have have one thing common: we all love Jesus and want to do His will.

So maybe we can keep it civil and be kind to each other.

Take care and God bless you.

Sue T.

[Margaret]

I've done research work in the history of art at the Vatican Library. I've also been in the Bibliotheque Nationale in Paris, the Biblioteca Hertziana in Rome, the Public Record Office in London, the Morgan Library in New York, the Manuscript Room at the New York Public Libary and the Prints and Drawings Collection of the Metropolitan Museum of Art (also New York) and all of them have the very same regulations about who can have access and what you are allowed to bring with you. When going to any of them one needs to have identification and recommendations from one's university or some other really good credentials and explanation about why you want access to their priceless and irreplaceable books and manuscripts. In fact, in Paris one can only examine manuscripts while wearing white gloves and under the watchful supervision of guards. However, the days when you could only bring in a pencil (which can be erased, should it touch the document) are pretty much over. People are allowed to bring in laptop computers nowadays and have been for most of the last two decades. Not sinister, just practical. Unless, of course, the Metropolitan Museum is covering up some dramatic secret!

[Veronica]

Completely irrelevant to this conversation, but I must ask: Is there ANY review out there of the movie just like it is? I appreciate Amy's observations, but so far I have not read a single account detailing the Duh Vinci movie, just reviews. I have never read DVC and I don't plan to, but I'm really curious about the differences between the novel and the movie. I know what DVC is about of course, but I'm interested in the movie version, which will be what most people around me are going to be familiar with.

Thanks and God bless!

[Veronica]

Completely irrelevant to this conversation, but I must ask: Is there ANY review out there of the movie just like it is? I appreciate Amy's observations, but so far I have not read a single account detailing the Duh Vinci movie, just reviews. I have never read DVC and I don't plan to, but I'm really curious about the differences between the novel and the movie. I know what DVC is about of course, but I'm interested in the movie version, which will be what most people around me are going to be familiar with.

Thanks and God bless!

[TM]

This is my favourite bit of Gabriel's post:
"Illuminati a vial anti-matter and a papal conclave?"

Haha! Gabriel, it's three things that feature in the book: 1) the Illuminati, 2) a vial (not "vile", which is an adjective) of anti-matter and 3) a papal conclave.

This kind of information, along with the rebuttals to your various 'interesting' arguments, is typically concealed in books.

I note with interest that at no point do you provide any evidence to back up any of your claims.

I see you have posted a second time, decrying the system in use at the British Library and the Vatican. It's simple - anybody can use these libraries. However, if absolutely everyone could just stroll in and page through the books like in a local public library, no one would ever be able to find what they needed, particularly for very rare books. So, the libraries simply require that you have a good reason for going there (and "I can't find this book anywhere else" is probably the most common reason).

[mayangrl]

James,

Teabing is a filthy rich British historical authority on the holy grail, who happens to live in France. He's been trying for years to prove the stories, with no luck, because the Vatican thwarts him.

SPOILER AHEAD
So, unbeknownst to the reader, he gets the ball rolling and offers money to Opus Dei to force them to play their hand as to where MM is buried. (Or something like that.) He hires an OD bishop who in turn hires his son figure, the murderous albino Silas (who scourages himself daily and has a really nice backside, ahem), to kill all the big kahunas of the priory of sion (not sure how Teabing figured them all out). Later Teabing discloses himself to Langdon, and threatens to kill him if he doesn't figure out one more code. He is arrested by the British police before realizing his life dream of learning where MM is buried and who the last descendant of JC is.

Got all that?

BTW, for what it's worth, I liked the book because I thought it was an easy read, and liked how it takes place in "real time," like the series "24." The writing was only so-so, the characters were flat, but it was still a page turner. Did I believe it? No.

I went to see the movie out of curiosity, and found it to be similar to the book, although on screen the story line seemed even more hokey. Although I think that computer thing Teabing did with the "Last Supper" was way cool.

Was there all this outcry about "Angels and Demons?" That didn't seem too Catholic-friendly.

[mayangrl]

James,

Teabing is a filthy rich British historical authority on the holy grail, who happens to live in France. He's been trying for years to prove the stories, with no luck, because the Vatican thwarts him.

SPOILER AHEAD
So, unbeknownst to the reader, he gets the ball rolling and offers money to Opus Dei to force them to play their hand as to where MM is buried. (Or something like that.) He hires an OD bishop who in turn hires his son figure, the murderous albino Silas (who scourages himself daily and has a really nice backside, ahem), to kill all the big kahunas of the priory of sion (not sure how Teabing figured them all out). Later Teabing discloses himself to Langdon, and threatens to kill him if he doesn't figure out one more code. He is arrested by the British police before realizing his life dream of learning where MM is buried and who the last descendant of JC is.

Got all that?

BTW, for what it's worth, I liked the book because I thought it was an easy read, and liked how it takes place in "real time," like the series "24." The writing was only so-so, the characters were flat, but it was still a page turner. Did I believe it? No.

I went to see the movie out of curiosity, and found it to be similar to the book, although on screen the story line seemed even more hokey. Although I think that computer thing Teabing did with the "Last Supper" was way cool.

Was there all this outcry about "Angels and Demons?" That didn't seem too Catholic-friendly.

[Kevin P. Edgecomb]

Gabriel, if you want to learn the real history relating to the early Christian centuries, and what real scholars are saying about such things, for starters go get yourself a copy of the Anchor Bible Dictionary, all 6 volumes, and read, read, read. I'm sure you think you know it all already. But you don't. You obviously have only the most tenuous, distorted impression. You've got the standard, rebellious, new-agey, urbane skeptic's viewpoint and stories, and those are not scholarly, not supported by evidence, and just garbage in the end. Yes, your opinion is something you're entitled to. But opinions are not facts, only evaluations. (This brings to mind Prov 18.2: A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion.) You are not entitled to believe stupid things, claim they're correct, and then get away with pooh-poohing others who actually have a much better understanding of the subject than you do. Amy didn't make herself look foolish at all, but you certainly make yourself look foolish. Read, learn, and you'll eventually agree. Or, as I suspect, you won't, because: "A rebuke goes deeper into a man of understanding than a hundred blows into a fool" (Proverbs 17.10).

Oh, and you want to see the risen Lord? Don't worry, you will soon enough.

[Gabriel]

Pardon me Donald; history doesn’t matter comment was meant for Wilma Tyndale

Notes:
Donna V; nothing constructive to say, maybe PMS, can’t read basic english, manipulator
Mary K; can’t read - “Searched all over the internet and could not find her addy anywhere. That’s why my post in HER supposed blog.”
Eileen R: see Mary K

One must adapt to level of education presented in order to be understood.

Scherza: that’s obvious, and it doesn’t constitute locking out scholars from reviewing/studying copies with public observers in tow.

Sue T: It’s I well documented and general knowledge that Vatican keeps at least 1 copy of any book in relation to their business. Many have been distributed to other local under their control. It’s also generally known the Church has burned many works witch disputed any part of their authority.
In reality no matter how much one society tries to wipe out another remnants will remain.

Sr. Lorraine: I will need to clear with persons asked due to privacy and disclosure issues.
Some of earlier years questions in Europe;
What is God? General answer; you are just a boy you will understand later. No real answer, to date.
Who is God? No real answer to date.
Where is God? I don’t see him/her/it. No real answer to date.
Why are there missing parts of the bible as in Genesis? No real answer to date.
Who made the universe? No real answer to date.
Why is bible in many parts contradictory to its self? Closest real answer: because different people wrote it. Still doesn’t cut it since missing parts of bible are available and Church refuses to add them.

Middle years:
Can you prove God exists? No real answer
Can you prove Jesus will come back? No real answer
If Jesus has returned where is he? And show proof. No real answer
Can you explain Ezekiel Chapter 1 in understandable language? No real answer. And by this time most looked for cover or left.
So how is it that people are lifted up from firmament and back down after a meeting? No comprehensive answer, if they ever get this far.

I think this should be enough for a beginning.
BTW: I have learned much since then.

Margaret: so true, yet Vatican works in a totally different manner and what’s available to view is minor. Most works which do not match their doctrine are definitely off limits.

[tony c]

Tony c: Where is he risen? Where? Show me. Where? I wana see. Prove it!

To paraphrase St. Athanasius, from his work titled "On the Incarnation": Show me a dead man who has influenced the world so much.

Logic should tell you this: the apostles clearly believed that Christ rose from the dead. Either that or they were nuts, since all but 1 were put to death for their wacky ideas.

[James Kabala]

Does the DVC acknowledge that the Louvre pyramid was not built until the 1980s? Is I.M. Pei supposed to be in on the conspiracy? Since he is still alive, I'm surprised no journalist has asked him for his two cents.
Mayangirl: Angels and Demons was anti-Catholic but did not become a best-seller until after DVC did; hence, when it first came out it was not seen as meriting a reply.

[MFG]

"Margaret: so true, yet Vatican works in a totally different manner and what’s available to view is minor. Most works which do not match their doctrine are definitely off limits. "

Wow! Gabriel not only has all those amazing credentials, but he alone knows what is in those off-limits Vatican library documents!!!

[CV]

Blow, Gabriel, Blow...

Re: Angels and Demons. Last week I saw an A & E "documentary" called "Illuminating Angels and Demons" that had a bunch of people I have never heard of holding forth on the "history" of the Illuminati, how the Church has always repressed science, etc. One lie after another, basically, all wrapped up in the form of a Serious Documentary.

One academic who looked exactly like Morticia Adams with an upper crust British accent proclaimed that she would give her eyeteeth to get into the Vatican library where all the "real" (i.e. Gnostic gospels) were being held in secret. Guess in all her volumnious reading she must have missed Elaine Pagels. Another author sat there and in all seriousness claimed that the Priory of Scion was real and that Leonardo and the rest were members. He wasn't even repeating a Dan Brown claim! He just acted the part of the expert witness and stated it as a fact.

The sad truth is, Dan Brown, Ron Howard and company have wrought a lot more than one bad book and one bad movie. Oh what a tangled web, indeed.

[Brigid]

[STOP THE NOISE]

Thanks for your thoughtful review, Amy.

I will order the DVD in about two months from Netflix 'cause the movie has bombed. Wishful thinking?

I cannot wait to hear today from folks who were going to see it this weekend.

So far, boring is what I have read.

Boring is not what movie theatres want at this time of year.

Lots o' other movies in the queue....

--------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------

[JoeInPA]

Regarding the box office for the movie, it's done pretty much what I figured it would. A good website for this kind of stuff is boxofficemojo.com. It was just behind Passion of the Christ for opening weekend receipts domestically. Internationally, it broke the record for its opening weekend. The question is, where does it go from here.

One thing to note was Sony's strategy for marketing this film. They did a world-wide release, but kept a tight lid on it until Cannes. It was only then that reviewers (and a smaller number than usual) got a preview of the movie. Overall, that's never a good sign - buzz can keep a movie going, or can kill it pretty quickly. Sony's strategy was obvious - hit it hard on the opening weekend, and minimize the buzz surrounding the movie, because I think they knew the movie was a dog (based on most reviews I've read, including Amy's, that appears to be the case). If they thought the movie was good, they would have let the buzz carry it, but they didn't.

Anyway, the question is - where does it go from here. I'm of the opinion that it will slide into the basement pretty quickly. Most movies today (especially the summer blockbuster variety) make most of their money on the opening weekend. If it doesn't do well on opening, the movie will be out of the theaters so fast it'll make your head spin. There are few movies these days that have staying power in the box office.

That staying power is really necessary for a movie to break say $300 million. And one thing that drives that staying power is repeat business. The Passion had it - many saw that movie repeatedly. Somehow I don't think The Da Vinci Code will. Many went to see it because of the lead-up and all the buzz before the movie came out. Sounds like many came out disappointed. That generally doesn't translate into repeat business.

[Ed the Roman]

merchant snipe,

I think Gabriel's rotor is a bit bowed. I hope his level is still in the sight glass.