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June 15, 2006

Comments

Maureen

This speech makes me want to stand up and cheer, and then kneel down and pray.

Dear Lord, please let our bishops approve ICEL's new translation, so that we may worship you in greater beauty and truth.

Cat Clinic

His Grace knocks it out of the park!!

Tremendous, clever and telling speech -- he takes Trautman's disgraceful behavior head-on, and demolishes it.

Tony A

This may be a little off topic (not too much!) but I do find it disconcerting to hear two versions of the Creed-- one in the US, and one in UK and Ireland.

"of one being" vs "one in being"

"He became incarnate" vs "he was born"

"was made man" vs "became man"

"He suffered death" vs "He suffered, died.."

"in accordance" vs "in fulfillment"

Did I get them all? I prefer the British version on all counts, because I think it is more faithful to the original Latin and Greek. But I would go even further and change "became man" as "man" (which can denote "male") is an unsatisfactory translation of anthropos. Either way, we need a common translation.

Jason

The revisiting of this was delayed for practical reasons, but also for ideological ones that caused many bishops grave concern, and that is sometimes forgotten.

An interesting admission, from a Bishop no less!

Tony,

I heard Fr. Pacwa explain it once, something to the effect that the English word "man" comes from German, and hence, "man" is the accurate translation, not "human". I don't remember the exact original words though.

Jeff

His Excellency is in excellent form!

I think this speech along with other things will tip the balance. For anyone not utterly given over to opposition, it should be persuasive.

Clare Krishan

Let's see if any of the media here report on the activities of his visit in as much detail as the BBC devotes to his day job(click on the purple textbox for 9 charming snapshots)

Clayton

[pun]We can only hope that this Leeds to approval of a faithful translation.[/pun/

KC Monet

Could someone point me to a source where I could find the full text of the proposed changes? I've found bits and pieces here and there ("And with your spirit", "consubstantial", etc), but I haven't been able to find the complete list anywhere.

Fr.Fergus

In 28 years of priesthood (less one week!), I've been able to celebrate Mass in several other European languages. German has rhythm, Italian has poetry and Spanish is very strong when it's used in the liturgy. Catalan is intimate and French is elegant, but the English we use is impoverished and often trite. Sometimes, the translation is inaccurate and occasionally it's bewildering, such as the Arianism that was slipped unawares into the fixed Preface for the Fourth Eucharist Prayer: "You alone are God, living and true" addressed to the Father. I've been told that there's also quite a bit of Pelagianism in the translations, with the presumption that we get there by our own efforts. We need to sort out this mess and should express our regrets to the Protestant churches which have followed us too closely in altering their own words of worship.

Robin

Good news, people! According to Rocco, it passed overwhelmingly. Bishop Trautman even recommended it!

Praise God! (Although, KC, I'd also like to read the whole thing - I've only seen bits and pieces.)

Mary Jane

I do believe there's hope for the liturgy.

Old Zhou

News reports from AP:

The nation's Roman Catholic bishops signed off Thursday on a new English translation for the Mass that would change prayers ingrained in the memories of millions of American parishioners.

The U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops voted at its biannual meeting for a new translation after a brief but vigorous debate over several small changes in wording. The 173-29 vote on the Order of the Mass was aimed at satisfying Vatican calls for a translation that's closer to the Latin version.

Before Mass changes at the parish level, the Americans' version must go to offices in the Holy See for final approval.

"Without a doubt, this is the most significant liturgical action to come before this body for many years," said Bishop Donald Trautman, chairman of the conference's Committee on Liturgy.

"It will take some adapting, but it is not earth-shattering when you think of the changes we went through 40 years ago," he said, referring to the Second Vatican Council, where the Latin Mass was replaced by the vernacular languages in each country.

The new translation alters the wording of key texts spoken by Catholics during worship, including the Nicene Creed, the Gloria, the Penitential Rite, the Sanctus and Communion.

Some have worried about changing a fundamental rite of worship that is so much a part of Catholic identity, especially now. Mass attendance has been declining, the priest shortage has left a growing number of churches without a resident cleric, bishops and parishioners have been battling over the closure of old churches and schools, and the prelates have been trying to rebuild trust in their leadership after the clergy sex abuse crisis.

"It's going to cause chaos and real problems and the people who are going to be at the brunt end of it are the poor priests in the parishes who don't need any more problems," said the Rev. Thomas Reese, a senior fellow at the Woodstock Theological Center at Georgetown University and a Jesuit priest.

Now, how long will it take to get the other 80% of the Missale translated and approved?

Elaine

Great! They approved it. Now when can we get it in missals, missalettes or otherwise in print?

Meggan

I noticed that in the early stages of our consultation on the Order of Mass, voices were raised in the South objecting to the use of ‘you all’ in the priest’s greeting because of the way in which those words are used in the South. - from Bishop Roche's address.

I thought this was funny. (Even though, where I come from it's "y'all" not "you all".)

Anyway, it reminds me of one of the readings from Genesis that is read at the Easter Vigil. This year the lay reader that read it at our parish had a very cowboy kind of accent. So I loved it when he read "Both of you stay here with the donkey, while the boy and I go on over yonder. We will worship and then come back to you."
And then his accent was great when, in the same reading, God said, "I swear by myself"
(Ah swayre bah mahself)

Also I always crack up when we get to the reading (read on June 2 this year) that begins
"King Agrippa and Bernice arrived in Caesarea
on a visit to Festus." Somehow that line is really funny when read with a southern accent.


Seriously, though. I am so excited about adopting the changes to the prayers in the mass. I can just hear the griping now, but I can't wait to speak those words and I can't wait for all of the opportunities to teach people and for people to really pay attention to what they're saying/praying.

mio

If Rocco is correct, they also approved a list of 62 American adaptations to the text. I wonder what they are (or, more to the point, how bad they are).

RP Burke

Fr. Pacwa doesn't know his German very well.

There are two words in German, one the generic 'man' and the other gender-specific 'Mann.'

In any event, if fussily literal Latin translation is your goal, the cognate for the word "homo" is "human."

So a fussily literal Latin translation of the phrase "et homo factus est" would be, "and was made human." Not "and was made man."

Can't have it both ways, folks.

Tony A

Yes, I prefer the fussy Latin "and was made human". I've been arguing for years that this is nothing to do with feminism and all about an accurate translation.

marc

'On a visit to Festus'... I confess that I always think of the character on the TV series Gunsmoke.

Victor

@RP Burke:
There are two words in German, one the generic 'man' and the other gender-specific 'Mann.'
In fact, there is the German word "Mensch", which means "human being", and "Mann", which means, well, male man. "et homo factus est" is translated "ist Mensch geworden"...

Julia

When I hear about visiting Festus, I think of the blue collar suburb South of St Louis where the automobile assembly plants are located.

Christine

"There are two words in German, one the generic 'man' and the other gender-specific 'Mann.'"

If the reference is to "Mann" and "man" the former does mean gender-specific male and the latter means "one" such as "man muss ..." i.e., "one must ..."

Maureen O'Brien

Fr. Pacwa was talking about the clear, oldest English meaning of "man", which is indeed an exact translation of "homo" and not of "vir". English does retain that generic meaning, although feminism and political correctness have done their best to kill it.

In case you're wondering what the Old English words for male and female persons were...

guma = male person
Hence "groom" and "bridegroom".

wif = woman, female, or wife (just like femina and many other Indo-European words for woman).

wif-man (which became woman) was a more precise way of saying "female person".

Maureen O'Brien

Great translates!
Great translates, gonna hit the States!
Gonna give you "spirit",
"roof", and "right and just",
"Peace to men of goodwill",
Words that you can trust!
I have sinned "greatly through my fault,
Through my fault, through my most grievous fault."
Once we said "we"; now undeceived,
We know what Credo means: "I believe".

Cooooooonsubstantial, 'cause the homoousious stops here!
We are glad to say this word today
'Cause it really is a lot more clear!

Cooooooonsubstantial is the sweetest, neatest kind of word
So give a shout, or murmur out,
Or sing it like a calling bird!

We know we belong to the Church,
And her Groom won't leave us in the lurch!

So we will say...
Alleluia today!
Oh, yes, we're sayin'
Praise God -- the Son's "consubstantial
With the Father", OK!

mio

If Rocco is correct, they also approved a list of 62 American adaptations ...

In deference to Rocco, let me correct myself by noting that these were in fact "amendments," not "adaptations," that were sprinkled through the text like the dew (oops, I mean "like the outpouring").

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