An interview with Milingo

John Allen has it

In his NCR interview, however, Milingo insisted that he had said no such thing, and that it was church authorities who insisted that he had been brainwashed.

"All my problems come from the lack of appreciation [by the authorities of the Catholic church] for the spiritual gifts I have," he said.

"It was too much for them to believe that in the modern world, I can simply say 'let this happen,' and it happens," he said.

Milingo offered several examples of his alleged spiritual prowess, including a recent phone call from a woman in Modena, Italy, who complained that 20 days after the birth of her child she could not produce mother's milk. Milingo said he instructed her to draw a glass of water, which he blessed over the phone. He instructed the mother to drink it, and immediately afterwards she began to lactate.

"They can't believe such things are possible," he said, with respect to Vatican officials and bishops who were reluctant to have him in their dioceses.

Comments

[Jason]

On that day many will say to me, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?" And then will I declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers."

[dymphna]

Milingo has gone round the bend. The kindest thing would be to let him go on about his business as an ex-bishop. The only other option is to make him the bishop of Antartica.

[Mary Kay]

I was going to make a witty (to me) but probably more like sarcastic comment, but realized that a Catholic leaving the Church is a cause for sadness. He's not the first, nor will he be the last.

A very wise lay Catholic said to me that those who have chosen other than what God had intended for them, when they die, they'll see what they could have done had they followed God's will.

Yet another fallen away Catholic to pray for.

[Mary Kay]

dymphna, please not Antarctica! I'm sure you're comment was made in jest, but there really is a chapel in Antarctica (two now I think) and the people living there have enough to contend with without adding a wayward bishop. :)

[padrechillin]

As the kids would say, "this dude is wacked."

[Jeff Miller]

The mark of humility.

"All my problems come from the lack of appreciation [by the authorities of the Catholic church] for the spiritual gifts I have,"

At least the Archbishop makes for a great geography educational game.
http://www.splendoroftruth.com/curtjester/archives/006945.php

[Jacqueline Y.]

"Milingo added that he was 'very surprised at how the Catholic Church has spread so much evil against the Rev. Moon' & that he would like to be an 'intermediary' between the two religious bodies".

Rev. Moon's teachings are based on the assertion that Jesus _failed_ in his mission as Savior by getting himself crucified before he had a chance to marry & found the Perfect Family. To Moonies, Jesus' death and resurrection are not salvific at all. Instead, God has supposedly chosen Moon to complete Jesus' "failed" mission.

"...many false prophets have gone out into the world..." (see I John4:1-6)

[Tom Haessler]

One hopes that Fr. Amorth's positive discernment of Milingo's "gifts" will now take another direction.

[Mary Kay]

Tom, what's the reason for your animosity toward Fr. Amorth?

It took only a minimal of searching for me to find that Fr. Amorth is the one who said that Milingo had been "brainwashed."

On this topic, you're showing yourself as someone who does not let facts get in the way of your opinions.

There's a name for people who sling mud on others without even reading what they've written.

[panasianbiz]

I stumbled across your blog while I was doing some online research. I had not heard of this Milingo prior to reading this discussion. I am curious enough now to look into this further.

[Caroline]

When did Milingo begin to act strangely? Were there any signs before he became a bishop?

[dymphna]

Oh dear, Mary Kay I forgot that there is chapel in Antartica. I wouldn't want to inflict Milingo on those good folks.

[StubbleSpark]

So, even Antarctica does not want him?

Time to get to work on that Vatican space program...

[StubbleSpark]

Isn't there actually a Church teaching about blessings and such over the phone -- ie, that they are impossible?

Priests cannot take confession over the phone nor can they bless hosts over the phone...

But when Fr. Pacwa prays on EWTN, I still cross myself...

hmmm...

[chris K]

From his own website about himself (which needs a bit updating):

http://www.archbishopmilingo.org/statement_archbishop_milingo.htm

And some articles at the time of his wedding:

http://www.cesnur.org/2001/moon_may05.htm

From Father Joe's blog: https://fatherjoe.wordpress.com/2006/07/13/archbishop-milingo-schism-over-married-priests/

4. Father Joe - July 14, 2006

Posted at: http://angrytwins.blogspot.com

Exorcists are usually quiet and humble men. Archbishop Milingo was a sensationalist and evidently relished the attention he got as a spiritual healer. He left himself open for this kind of fall; indeed, in uniting with George Augustus Stallings, he has found a man with an enormous ego to match his own. Are they Catholics of any sort now, or just a branch of the Moonies? Stallings has women priests, condones all sorts of immoral practices (sexual in particular), combines Christianity with teachings and practices from Kwaanza, the Koran, and the various pagan teachings of the East. As soon as he started his own Church, he eradicated the sacrament of Penance. His religion is pelagian, pagan and utterly religious relativism. His doctrine of the Trinity is modalistic and the first person of the Trinity is called MOTHER-FATHER. The twisted version of the Creed he uses at services speaks of Christ’s birth (while the Latin of the Mother Church in Rome speaks of our Lord becoming “incarnate” which implies in the womb. He also says that Christ “becomes” a person; however, while he became MAN, he had been the Second PERSON of the Blessed Trinity from all eternity.

The issue here is more than a demand against the discipline of celibacy for priests. We see with the archbishop a profound shift away from the orthodox faith and a renunciation of magisterial authority.

It appears that Stallings had some problems with his own Imani Temple followers too after his wedding:

Stallings’s troubles started last week after Greene preemptively announced her ex’s nuptials; he compounded his problems by telling us, “I’ve been plagued by women scorned,” and then made things even worse by explaining to the Afro-American newspaper: “I chose a Japanese wife because . . . they are dedicated to their husbands, they are gentle and they work with them.” He added that he didn’t want a wife “who desired to party all the time.”

Yesterday, as Stallings dodged grenades hurled by his own flock, the Unification Church sent in reinforcements. The Rev. Michael Jenkins, Moon’s top church official in North America, told Harris that Stallings’s engagement to Kamimoto is the result of genuine love, not an arbitrary union orchestrated by the Korean. “We are confident of Bishop Stallings’s integrity and purity as a man of God,” said Jenkins. “The allegations against Bishop Stallings have been proven false.” Jenkins said that starting tonight Stallings will hold a three-day revival at Imani Temple sponsored by the Unification Church, and that on Sunday he will say his marriage vows along with 40 other couples at the New York Hilton. “This is a definitely a beautiful love story,” Jenkins said. “I don’t think it can get better than this.”

It seems that Milingo was removed from his African position as Archbishop in '83 due to complaints that he was acting more as a witchdoctor than Catholic healing minister.

[Jeffrey S. Smith]

How about the part of Antarctica where there isn't a chapel? Titular Bishop of McMurdo Sound, in partibus penguinem has a nice ring to it.

[Tom Haessler]

Hello, Mary Kay,

Why am I opposed to the sort of exorcism ministry promoted by Fr. Amorth? Easy. It's based on bad theology.

I was not referring to his statement about Stallings' "brainwashing". Long before Stallings' "marriage" and involvement with the Moonies, Amorth gave credibility to Archbishop Milingo's "exorcism ministry" - and AFTER Milingo had been removed from his post in Africa and brought to Rome because of major problems with his ministry.

Amorth has insisted that the revision of the exorcism doesn't "work"! He is perfectly free to use the older ritual with permission. But denouncing the new one on the basis of its alleged inefficacy is to promote superstition and a theological misunderstanding of the Church's own understanding of solemn exorcisms.

He's claimed to perform 30,000 exorcisms. This is a species of self-promotion that staggers the imagination. A solemn exorcism is not like a quicky pre-Vatican II low mass - twenty minutes and it's done!

He's incorporated popular Italian superstitions like the "evil eye" into his explanations of things demonological.

Contrary to the directions in the ritual, he's rejected the idea that one needs to make a judgment EXCLUDING natural causes and mental illness BEFORE attempting a solemn exorcism.

Catholic teaching on angels and demons and the possibility of diabolic possession is an important, although minor, issue in adult catechesis. Bad theology in this area pedaled by people like Fr. Amorth (see Fr. Richard Woods, O.P. for a balanced assessment), or worse, by the Irish blarney contained in Malachi Martin's HOSTAGE TO THE DEVIL, produces an unhealthy skepticism about the existence of demons among many Catholics. The rightly react to the silliness of Amorth and Martin, but wrongly throw the baby out with the bathwater by rejecting biblical and doctrinal teaching about angels and demons.

I'm sure someone like Sandra Miesel would be far more competent than I am in giving chapter and verse about the dangers of sensationalism in this area.

After the sensational death of a young anorexic and mentally ill person in Germany (the case was the basis for the Emily Rose movie), Cardinal Ratzinger and the German bishops put and end to all exorcisms in Germany until intelligent guidelines could be produced which would eliminate the kind of abuse connected with this case.

As for Fr. Groeschel's alleged endorsement of Amorth's book, READ his introduction. It damns the book with faint praise!

There is a real need for some Catholic writer to research this topic and present it with balance and serious theological input. Such a book would have to deal with the full background and history of Fr. Malachy Martin, his relationship to Robert Blair Kaiser, an in depth analysis of Fr. Amorth's ministry, a critique of the Devils of Loudon case with input from Catholic historians and a grappeling with abuses in deliverance ministry which have been the subject of one of the doctrinal congregation's interventions.

[Mary Kay]

Tom, you obviously have not read Fr. Amorth's book, nor did you read my responses on the earlier thread.

Your statement "Fr. Groeschel's alleged endorsement" is an example that even when you read what someone has written, you have not read it closely enough to comprehend what the other person is saying. Nowhere in my posts do I say, or allege, that Fr. Groeschel endorses Fr. Amorth's approach. What I did say was that Fr. Groeschel did not impugn Fr. Amorth nor associate Fr. Amorth with superstitition.

In response to above, neither does Fr. Groeschel "damn with faint praise." YOU might want to ponder on Fr. Groeschel's statement "(Fr. Amorth) raises the issue of the diabolical, which almost always gets a response of ill-informed prejudice. Think long and hard on that sentence because he is describing people like you.

Since responding to the multitude of inaccuracies, misperceptions and "ill-informed prejudice" in your post today would consitute work, or at least not "resting," on this Sunday, I will pass on that for another day.

[Sandra Miesel]

Tom, I'm more familiar with problems surrounding exorcisms in the past than in the present. (Contact me directly, if you'd like to discuss this more.) I gave a couple of book titles the other day on public exorcisms in 17th C France that clearly were a form of religious theater and unlikely to have involved real demons any more than Salem did. Milingo's sensational exorcisms before large, emotionally turbulent audiences are something of a parallel with these past cases.

It would be interesting to compare Fr. Amroth's theories with those in the classic demonological literature of Sprenger & Insistoris, Nider, Del Rio et al which one can read about in Stuart Clark's magisterial THINKING WITH DEMONS. The Spanish, Roman, and Venetian Inquisitions were quite lenient on matters realting to witchcraft/sorcery and their record preserve a lot of traditional Italian folklore which could also be compared with Fr. Amroth's ideas.

As this debate winds on, I recalled that Fr. Amroth had initially denounced HARRY POTTER as bearing the "signature" of Satan but later changed his opinion. This is from newspaper quotes, Mary Kay.

The diabolism issue that really raises my eyebrows is the one about "healing one's family tree". Susposedly depression is due to some ancestor having dabbled in magic and deliverance ministry will cure it. Queenship Press publishes books on this theory. Guess I must be doomed since my grandmother would work gris-gris to stop storms--they always stopped of course.

[padrechillin]

I must agree with Tom, Fr Groeschel's preface to Fr. Amorth's first book is the most half- hearted preface I have ever read; the only point of support he makes is that the demonic is a real dimension of reality, but not necessarily how Fr. Amorth always approaches it. Mary Kay, I read the book, so the facts are not getting in the way of my opinion- how can you say Fr. Groeschel is a supporter of Fr. Amorth from that preface is beyond me!!!

[chris K]

Contrary to the directions in the ritual, he's rejected the idea that one needs to make a judgment EXCLUDING natural causes and mental illness BEFORE attempting a solemn exorcism.

To be fair, that is not what he has said. Even AFTER discovery that the various fields of medicine can give no basis, this new rite fears still getting involved unless there is overtly expressed evidence of the devil's (in whatever form) presence and Fr. Amorth contends that that never happens without an exorcist working on a "face to face" exchange with all that that involves within the rite....the naming, etc. which allows the exorcist to know where within the hierarchy of demons they are working - that is, just how difficult it may be. And, also to be fair, I doubt if anyone here commenting is competent to speak reliably to the area of exorcism, other than having seen a movie or reading about it in a different time period that held different cultural beliefs. It holds a multitude of possibilities and no objective reading of some partial ritual has ever been successful in the really difficult cases, or...the one P. JPII was partially involved with would have ended there, instead of only giving partial relief. I doubt if he would here agree that that case involved only "superstitions" within the history of the life of that poor victim. There was obviously nothing wrong with the Roman rite. It appeared to the modernists to need updating, but those involved in the process were not experienced or competent either. Whether you agree or not that Fr. Amorth was competent in the cases in which he was involved...and one has to admit that either his appointment as one to oversee others and to whom difficult cases were referred was done by other incompetents at the Vatican that he simply hypnotized or maybe he went in where others feared to tred, or, he was actually trusted by evidence of his former successes. If not, then you are stating that the Vatican didn't know what it was doing in this field. Perhaps later this was true. If you read the interview with Milingo by theologian Christian Hvidt (sp?) he actually outlined the steps involved in exorcism quite well, but he himself was simply not a stably equipped personality when it came to getting personally involved in such.

After the sensational death of a young anorexic and mentally ill person in Germany (the case was the basis for the Emily Rose movie), Cardinal Ratzinger and the German bishops put and end to all exorcisms in Germany until intelligent guidelines could be produced which would eliminate the kind of abuse connected with this case.

Since this was done only in Germany, it would appear that the reason was to allow things to die down and give time for real assessment ... or else there would have been a call for a moratorium worldwide since obviously the same could occur anywhere without those "intelligent guidelines".

The very fact that Fr. Groeschel even wrote anything in a book that is so roundly ridiculed by the "experts" demonstrates that there was at least enough history of competence overall to have the desire to connect one's own reputation to it. If Fr. G. was as assuredly competent as the experts here commenting, I'm certain that he would not have touched it with a ten foot pen! But, for some reason he did. I guess the "go to guy" for conservative Catholics in so many comboxes must have been a little naive on this one!!

Is Father Amorth credible?

"He has been very successful in helping a wide range of persons with acute disturbances quite beyond the scope of clinical diagnosis...As a priest rather than a clinician, I recognise in this book the account of an intelligent and dedicated pastor of souls who has had the courage to go where most of us fear to tread"

Father Benedict J. Groeschel, C.F.R., Ed.D.

And of course we can't leave out the second foreword by Fr. Candido Amantini

For thirty-six years Fr. Amantini, a Passionist stationed at the church of the Holy Staircase, was the chief exorcist of Rome. He would often see 60 to 80 people a day. Padre Pio said of him, "Father Candido is a priest after God's heart."

Father Gabriele Amorth became his apprentice, in June of 1986, and then eventually took over his position. After a painful illness, he died on the Feast of Saint Candido, his patron saint.

Interesting evidence within this unusual subject for debate.

[Mary Kay]

Chris K, thank you, from the bottom of my heart, thank you for being a voice of common sense. There's a few things from your post that I'd like to highlight.
One is that if Fr. Groeschel thought that Fr. Amorth was a bundle of superstition, he would not have written the introduction.
Another is your statement "I doubt if anyone here commenting is competent to speak reliably to the area of exorcism." I would include myself in the area of exorcism, but one of the points made by Fr. Amorth that resonated with me was that he made distinctions in the type and extent of demonic activity. In my clinical work, I had run into a few instances that were beyond, or something other than, mental health. It is based on that experience that I see value in Fr. Amorth's writing, even though his approach is vastly different from the standard protocol here in the US.
Third is your response to Tom's statement
"Contrary to the directions in the ritual, he's rejected the idea that one needs to make a judgment EXCLUDING natural causes and mental illness BEFORE attempting a solemn exorcism".
Your response concerns the new rite and was excellent regarding the new rite. However, read Tom's statement differently. It seemed to me that Tom was referring to Fr. Amorth saying to use exorcism as a diagnostic implyint that Fr. Amorth ignored physical or psychological causes. That clearly is not the case
Need to make this two posts.

[Mary Kay]

Hmmm. I also needed to make sure that the paragraph separations were still there. Live and learn.

Padrechillin, show me where I said that "Fr. Groeschel is a supporter of Fr. Amorth."

Sandra, 3 notes from your post. It probably would be interesting at some point to compare Fr. Amorth's writings to demonic literature as long as one is aware of comparing surgical case notes to literature. Operative note on open heart surgery to Poe's "A Tell-Tale Heart." When a priest does an exorcism, he is like a spiritual physician/surgeon. I'll leave that for now.

Except for what I forgot to say. In health fields, there is a "theoretical component" and an "applied component," ie a practicum, putting it into practice. Fr. Amorth's book is a description of the "applied component" rather than theory.

Ah, Harry Potter. I remember reading the first book, thinking it well written, and wishing that Rowling had used something, anything, other than witchcraft as the backdrop for the story. Tons of people enjoyed the books. As much as he was ridiculed for it, I also understand Fr. Amorth's concern. But I don't want to go down that path today.

Exploring one's family tree can be, and has been, a valid adjunct for healing. Like anything else, it needs to used by those who know when and how to use it. That's another topic that's best left for another discussion.

Tom, your post is so off base that it's hard to know where to start. Once again, I'm cutting my time close, but here's some brief thoughts for you.

First, your glaring errors. You state that Fr. Amorth's ministry is based on "bad theology" but are not unable to substantiate it.

Neither was I referring to Stallings. I referred to Fr. Amorth's statement that Milingo had been brainwashed, fairly quickly found by Googling. (will get the reference for you this evening)

Fr. Amorth denouncing the new rite promotes superstition and "a theological misunderstanding of the Church's own understanding of solemn exorcisms"? Where DO you get your notions from? Fr. Amorth has consistently referred to the Ritual, to the Catechism, the centrality of Jesus Christ and the role of Mary. Where's the bad theology? Please substantiate your allegation. btw, then Cardinal Ratzinger did not agree with whatever your reasoning is.

To go the beginning of that paragraph, yes, Fr. Amorth is free to use the old Ritual with permission. In your haste to make him wrong, did it occur to you that he was thinking beyond himself, that he who has had much experience with exorcisms might know something that you, with no experience, don't know?

That you attribute the number of exorcisms to "self promotion" reveals your prejudice towards Fr. Amorth. What are your qualifications and/or competence in the area of exorcism? Again, you give no evidence of Fr. Amorth wrote of distinctions in demonic activity and also that some require more or fewer prayers.

As for the "evil eye," I will repeat what I wrote in the previous thread, which you apparently did not read. Fr. Amorth mentioned the "evil eye" to round out the description of a category. In fact, he specifically addresses the superstition aspect. That's probably why your post sounds so arrogant. You make unsubstantiated allegations that are easily disproved by reading what Fr. Amorth actually wrote.

As I said to Chris, your comment about Fr. Amorth excluding natural or psychological causes is disproved by his writing of times of collaboration with medical personnel. Yet another allegation that is unsubstantiated.

You obviously think highly of Fr. Woods. The first time you mentioned him, I did a Google search which revealed his interest in political science. Not exactly the basis for judging another's competence in exorcisms. So I dug a little deeper to see what medical experience he had. The only thing I could find was that he was part of an interdisciplinary team in a sexual dysfunction clinic. Now some wag might pounce on that, but I can assure you that sexual dysfunction clinics are not where demonic activity most frequently is seen. In sum, your suggestion for a "balanced assessment" is someone who has neither mental health training nor experience relevant to demonic activity. At least, not that I could find.

Your statement of a "real need...to research this topic" starts well. There is a need, which is why Fr. Amorth wrote his book. It does not fill all the gap, but is a contribution towards closing that gap.

You propose that someone research "this topic" and yet you discount and discredit the priest who has (whatever the number) extensive experience in exorcisms and you've provide no sound reason for doing so. That's one of the most illogical suggestions I've heard in a while.

You state the need for a balanced presentation and yet propose a very unbalanced criteria of contents. What it tells me is that you don't know what you don't know on this topic.

Let me explain that. Handed down for the past 20 years in various contexts is the following:
There are things that:
1. we know that we know
2. we know that we don't know
3. we don't know that we know
4. we don't know that we don't know

Let me give you examples:
1. I know that I know the storyline of The Lord of the Rings.
2. I know that I don't know how to write in Chinese.
3. I didn't know that I knew how to lay out a large scale repeating pattern in drapery fabric.
4. What I don't know that I don't know is my blind spot.

Tom, you have a blind spot on the topic of exorcism. Please consider that there are things that you don't know and that you have an "ill informed prejudice" which has included Fr. Amorth.

[edward g shaffner]

Instead of critic against fr. amorth or bishop milingo, lets pray they will do GODs will. Imagine the thousands of people that both men, through CHRIST, have helped!