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November 19, 2006

Comments

Richard

For God's sake. What was she thinking?

Terry

Bishop Jefferts Schori’s interviews always feature softball (or even NERF-ball) questions. Here are some questions I would like to see a reporter ask her (I can dream can’t I...)

In your papers and press releases prior to your election as Presiding Bishop, you made a big point of “el buen Samaritano” and your deanship of the “Good Samaritan School of Theology.” Yet, you have admitted both of these were inflated terms. They have also disappeared from any post-election materials (such as the Episcopal page ‘Who is the Presiding Bishop?’). Why did you lie on your resume?

Why were you elected? On paper, even with your inflated claims, you were clearly the least qualified candidate. Were you elected solely because of your gender?

During your tenure as Bishop of Nevada, you used the Kairos Prison Ministry materials inappropriately. This organization considers the breaches significant enough that they are suing the Nevada Diocese for copyright violations. Would you care to comment?

The Kairos organization feels that their approach of gender-specific ministers for prison populations is both sound Biblically and practically? Would you care to comment.

What happened to “el buen Samaritano?”

Reporters seem to be very impressed by your experience as an oceanographer and as a pilot. Why are these relevant?

During you tenure as Bishop of Nevada, how much did the diocese grow? In that same period how much did the state of Nevada grow? Why do you think the Episcopal percentage is so much lower?

Jesus said, “No one comes to the father except through me.” What does that mean?

The Episcopal Church has been losing members for many years, why?

Do you really think, as you said in a New York Times Magazine interview, that the conservatives (such as Catholics) are “outbreeding” the Episcopalians?

Is it not possible that the liberal social gospel and ordination and promotion of gay ministers bears some responsibility for the membership loss?

In recent memory, two ministers confessed to breaking their wedding vows, one left his marriage and one did not. Why has one been made an Episcopal bishop and the other has resigned his position in disgrace. Compare and contrast - Vicki Gene Robinson’s marital breakup and Ted Haggard’s fall.

You state in the New York Times Magazine interview that we “are all hypocrites.” Isn’t the Christian belief that “we are all sinners?”

What is sin?

The Episcopal Church in America was at one time named the Protestant Episcopal Church of the United States. With this Protestant background, how is “deeds-based evangelism” consistent with the Protestant principle of “faith alone?”

Why was one of your first acts as Presiding Bishop the formation of a committee to make sure property does not leave the TEC when parishioners leave the TEC?

Why does all material related to the issue of gay sexuality refuse to include references to Dr. Gagnon’s work. For example, the study guide prepared by the association of Episcopal Seminary Librarians has expressly excluded Gagnon’s work. This is so, even though Biblical scholars consider it a masterful treatment of the Biblical issues.

If the Millennium Development Goals are so important, why is the TEC allocating only seven-tenths of one percent of its budget to them?

If the MDGs are a sign of our deeds-based evangelism, how do you justify the buildings, salaries, and budget of the TEC bureaucracy?

Why have you singled out eight dioceses as “problem dioceses?” What exactly is the problem?

Has the Dennis Canon ever been tested and upheld in a court of law?

You and your supporters often criticize the African Bishops for turning a blind eye to polygamy. Where is the evidence of this?

You have an “honorary” doctorate from CDSP. The African Bishops, as a group, have a significant number of earned doctorates from major Western theological schools. Why should we listen to your theology rather than theirs?

Why is the Episcopal Church in Nigeria one of the fastest growing churches anywhere on earth?

Who is Jesus?

In what way is threatening churches consistent with deeds-based evangelism?

Two churches in Virginia have just proposed leaving the TEC. Their Average Sunday Attendance exceeds that of the entire Nevada Diocese. Shouldn’t their concerns be taken seriously?

In your New York Times interview, you discuss the relative childlessness of Episcopalians in terms of stewardship of the Earth’s resources. In light of this stewardship, what percentage of the TEC budget could be reduces if the offices at 815 were moved to say, Topeka or Omaha? In this day of instant communications and the Internet, surely a less expensive and wasteful location could be found for the headquarters of such an environmentally responsible church.

Why should I be Episcopalian rather than sleep in on Sunday morning?

I understand your mother became an Orthodox Christian in the 1970’s. What was that like?

You have criticised some for placing God in a “little box.” Jesus speaks of the “eye of the needle” and the “narrow way.” Compare and contrast your and Jesus’ viewpoints.

Why has the outreach to LGBT individuals been such a failure in terms of growing the Episcopal Church?

A significant portion of Christianity (Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy) does not allow women to be priests. What is your response to this fact?

At your investiture, I noticed that none of the major celebrants nor you had any cross symbols on their vestments. Was this intentional?

What is the Resurrection?

Sidney

From the proposed Episcopalian version of Psalm 23:5

"Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou annointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over. Forgive me for having enemies and for using more than my portion; I am better educated than the greedy breeders who are hate-filled and need my enlightened leadership."

AJP

Wow.

I'm not suprised that Ms. Schori *thinks* that. I am surprised that she would *say* that in a public forum. For a woman who boasts about how well educated she (and her church) is, she is pretty ignorant about how to discuss a sensitive issue in a public setting without offending other religions. What she says is true, after all - the ECUSA has a low birthrate, and its demographics have a lot to do with that. Schori could have made this point without bringing Catholics and Mormons into it and slamming us as uneducated, irresponsible, breeding machines.

JB the (former) Kairos Guy

"If only the Pope were here to tell us what to do!"

Oh, Amy. I got my receiver implanted in a filling in my tooth when I joined Opus Dei. I can't believe you haven't gotten yours yet!

That's actually why some Protestant wymyn get IUDs. It's not birth control--it blocks the shortwave radio signals from the Vatican.

Peace,
Brian

DK

Ms. Schori should read the warning bells then in her faith and see that as a sign of things to come. The Episcopals are dying off and the Catholics are increasing, if we're babymaking machines in her eyes. Doesn't the Bible tell us to go out and populate the Earth? I guess she forgot that part.

Peony Moss

"Suffer not the little children to come unto me; for behold, their tiny mouths ravage the earth, they deprive their elders of their proper portion. Today they cry for bread and pluck the lilies of the field; will they not tomorrow cry for even more bread, and even for the flesh of beef and fowl, fattened in the fields where once grew old-growth forests? Will not their donkeys and chariots clog the roads, depriving you of your rightful parking spots? Behold, they will swarm over the land like locusts, consuming resources, and their appetites will never be satisfied. Follow not the examples of the ignorant, and admit children into your house only with care.

"Pity the poor, but heap scorn upon the ignorant. Yea, in the greatest newspaper in the land, mock the uneducated and the selfish. For lo, the poor you will have always with you as long as they obstinately continue to bear children; and as the factory produces iPods and the sturgeon produces roe, so do the graduates of second-rate colleges and the other illiterates produce lots of children.

"Blessed are the educated."

Tom Ryan

There's a contact e-mail form at episcopal church usa presiding bishop office. I just sent her a letter. Why don't a few others?

Tom Ryan

forgot to add:write bishop Schori at www.episcopalchurch.org (at homepage there's a link to presiding bishop, but spend a moment browsing other sections....)

Marion (Mael Muire)

Bishop Schori's remark that, "Episcopalians tend to be better-educated and tend to reproduce at lower rates than . . . Roman Catholics and Mormons (who) have theological reasons for producing lots of children" betrays an intellectual elitism and snobbery that are quite breathtaking.

Her remark implies that the Catholic and Mormon "theological reasons" for having large families spring not from any authentic understanding of God's word that happens to differ from her own, but from sheer ignorance!

Such an attitude of arrogance and superiority toward one's fellow Christians can hardly arise from anything in keeping with the spirit of the Gospel.

I am led to wonder whether similarly arrogant and elitist notions inform other of the Bishop's views, and perhaps, even those of any number of members of her sect.

Child friendly over-educated Episcopal priest breeder

On behalf of many, many Episcopalians I apologize for the words of my highly educated yet maleducata presiding bishop. She's puts it out there for all to see the poor state of theology in our church.

P.S. Anti-Catholic bigotry is very widespread in my church

Father Elijah

Absolutely amazing! And terribly sad :(

This woman's comments immediately bring to mind the theories of Ms. Sanger, the founder of Planned Parenthood and a member of the American Nazi Party, that Northern Europeans are smarter than Southern Europeans (and of course those in America descended from their respective group :( ) That Catholics overpopulate because the Catholic laity are far less educated. This is because the Catholic 'brains' become celibate clergy and religious [Sanger was baptized as an infant as a Catholic as well :( )

Thanks Amy for the leads to those "Anglican blogs" (I don't think I will call them Episcopalian at this point) I was encouraged to find so many of our Anglican brothers and sisters standing firm in the Apostolic Faith as well as in solidarity with 'us'. One stated they feared seeing what some might say on this blog (being a primarily Catholic blog). To the Anglicans in the USA let us extend our hands in friendship, growing communion and our prayers for you at this difficult time.

For any Catholics out there still thinking that we should become far more 'progressive' and be transformed by the present culture------think it over please and look around at what is really going on.

Marion (Mael Muire)

Thank you, dear "Child friendly over-educated Episcopal priest breeder" for your kind apology.

I love it that you used maleducada. Such an excellent word that conveys so much, isn't it?

As for your observation that "Anti-Catholic bigotry is very widespread in my church", as a Catholic, I can only reply, "tell me something I didn't already know!"

Kelly

In charity, I will assume that she was making a point in an unclear way. I think that she was trying to say that (a)Epicopalians are well-educated, and (b)lacking a theology that encourages having lots of children, they are free to give priority to their well-educated environmental concerns and refrain from having children.

She should have said, "Catholics and Mormons have a theology that encourages them to have lots of children. We do not have that theology, and being well-educated are very concerned with environmental stewardship. For that reason, we, unlike the well-educated-but-slaves-to-theology-Catholics- and-Mormons, are free to give those concerns top priority and not have children."

See, much less offensive.

Judy

When I attended a fundraiser brunch for the Pregnancy Care Center in Ft. Pierce FL on Saturday, I had a great conversation with a gentle, soft-spoken Episcopal woman seated beside me. I found out later, from the director of the PCC, that Grace is a wonderfully successful sidewalk counselor at the abortion mill, which is directly across from the PCC. Grace said she feels like the crewman who gave testimony after the sinking of the Titanic.

"When did you leave the ship?"

"I didn't."

"But your here. You must have left the ship?"

"I never left the ship! The ship left me."

Since one of our daughters now attends an Episcopal Church in Las Vegas, I asked Grace what translation of the Bible they use. She told me they use several, but she uses the Jerusalem Bible. I know Mother Angelica loves this non-inclusive translation and was happy that we have that link with rank-and-file faithful Episcopalians - but it kind of confused me, as I thought Episcopalians, like other Protestants, reject 7 books of the Bible and probably used some sort of ham-handed translation of the King James Version. Can any of you Episcopalians enlighten me on that?? Grace said that Episcopalians consider the Pope as the Bishop of Rome and also said the early Sunday service should be traditional - so they're fighting that liturgical battle, too. Grace isn't angry only saddened by what is happening in her Church.

Maureen

Episcopalians aren’t interested in replenishing their ranks by having children?

No. It’s probably the opposite. We encourage people to pay attention to the stewardship of the earth and not use more than their portion.

And the third man buried his talents in the ground... So when the master came back, he praised the man, saying, "Not only did he not risk anything that I gave him, he showed good stewardship of the earth and did not use more than his portion!"

marco frisbee

Where, o where is Mister Colbert when we need him??

Marion (Mael Muire)

Dear Kelly,

Your point is well taken, but the hypothesis that the bishop intended to convey simply "well-educated" to describe members of her sect fails in my view, I'm afraid, for the fact remains that her Excellency selected the comparative "better-educated."

If one takes the trouble to say "better. . . ", there is a "than" implied, as well, whether spoken or unspoken.

As in "better-educated" than those backward other individuals whom we are so much better educated than.

Maleducada, indeed!

trog

"Child friendly over-educated Episcopal priest breeder": no apology necessary; Schori's remark reflects far more of herself than anyone else as she is telling her story. The only reaction is to add her to prayer and that is never a burden.

TerryC

I have neither the gift of Knowledge nor Understanding but I prophezies anyway that there will come a time in the not too distant future that instead of coming to the Catholic Church in ones and twos an entire Episcopalian congregation, complete with priests and deacons will petition a Catholic bishop to be joined in union with Rome. At that point the Holy See will need to decide if they are willing to come to some kind of accommodation to permit this to happen and how it will effect our relationship as a Church with the greater Angelical community.

Rich Leonardi

Better educated.

Because treating human beings as though they were resource-sucking leeches instead of gift-bearing contributors is what intelligent stewardship is all about.

And count on Mr. Colbert to pick up this story.

Consanescerion

You shall know them by their fruits

Tim Ferguson

Think of it this way - if the Episcopal Church continues to be successful, in the manner in which Schori defines success, they will educate and contracept themselves entirely out of existence.

Tom Ryan

As noted above, I sent a letter to Bishop Schori at 10:00am (EST), and recived a fairly lengthy and fairly complete response from Robert Goodfellow, "communications aide" who said that he was writing on the bishop's behalf.

Please write to them and ask for a reponse. Let's let as least Robert Goodfellow know how we feel.

Allen Lewis

The Presiding Bishop's lack of care and preparation for interviews is appalling. She has answered so many questions in "an unclear way" that I can no longer believe that those answers are accidental: She actually means what she says.

Marion has asked about other arrogant and elitist notions that the Presiding Bishop might have. Alas! They are too numerous to mention and, unfortunately, those beliefs are echoed and held by far too many in leadership positions in the Episcopal Church. I mourn daily for what has become of the denomination I was raised in. But then, when I was born, it was only beginning the path to apostasy which it has trod over my lifetime.

I, too, offer my apologies for the condescending arrogance offered up by the Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church.

Kelly

"If one takes the trouble to say "better. . . ", there is a "than" implied, as well, whether spoken or unspoken.

As in "better-educated" than those backward other individuals whom we are so much better educated than."

Well, statistically Epicopalians are better educated and wealthier than any of the other denominations in America. At least, that's what they said in my Sociology of Religion class a few years back.

Catholicism wins in numbers, but when you're the church of the masses, your numbers get dragged down in other areas. That doesn't mean that all Catholics are UNeducated, though.

But I agree that the clearest meaning of what Shori says is what most are taking it to be. :)

Lynn

Amazing that such an "educated women" as Schori could have such stupid, unfounded opinions, let alone publicly slander another religion. Does the virtue of charity have no
place in her life?

caine thomas

The WASP elitist mentality seems to have remained amazingly stagnant since the early days of the birth control movement. If you look at the pages of Margaret Sanger's BCR it's just loaded with the musings of idle wealthy women fretting over the fertile, feeble-minded Catholics. The continuation of the stereotype would be funny if it didn't always assert it's bland utopian dreams through forced sterilization of whatever defenseless group they can find.

Marion (Mael Muire)

Dear Kelly,

Right.

Like the Geico commercial http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTB05QyI4aw&mode=related&search=

All Bishop Schori is asking for is "A program of Environmental Awareness so simple . . . even a Papist could do it!"

Catholic Mom

I can only echo what everyone else says about her remarks being offensive and reeking of anti-Catholic bigotry. However, they are also remarkably uninformed if she is claiming that her denomination's "market share" has declined because of all those procreating Catholics out there. Our own bishops have conceded that 96% of Catholic couples are using contraception.

mb

We should keep in mind that the interviewer, Deborah Solomon, is notorious for her interviews. In charity, we do not know what the bishop said. We only know what the interview reported of that interview.

Tom K.

The thought occurs that an interview by Deborah Solomon would make a great Christmas gift. Who wouldn't enjoy hearing things like, "You're very forgiving," and, "You have many talents"?

Though it's not for everyone.

Liam

Dear Bishop Lori:

Do you realize that your job description does not extend to re-enactments of Monty Python movies. They were funnier, and more balanced.

Michelle M

The assumption that people who have large families are unintelligient is also present among Catholics. I am the mother of a large family. Many years back (we had seven at the time) I wrote an article that was published in the Globe and Mail here in Canada, about the ridiculous things people say to mothers of large families. My husband is a Catholic school teacher. He found out, in conversation with one of his female colleagues, that she presumed he had written it and I had put my name on it. As a colleague of his she had daily evidence of his intelligience. I guess she figured in a family of this size somebody had to be stupid, so it must have been the mother!

Fr Martin Fox

In fairness, it is the New York Times, so it is just possible she was misconstrued...

That said: this is such a spot-on self-parody that it's a great story regardless . . . either she really said it; or the NYT invented it somewhat out of what she did say . . .

A lot of folks seem offended; and while I agree with why they are offended, I just can't stop laughing long enough to be mad.

It demonstrates again what I've said often: that sometimes, parody has to work really hard to stay ahead of reality.

Marion (Mael Muire)

How very sad, Michelle.

Let us ask the good God to cleanse our hearts of elitist attitudes that are, after all, sins not only against the virtue of charity, but also against those of humility and justice.

For the virtue of humility says, "all I have has been bestowed on me by God not for my own enjoyment alone, nor that I may lord it over my neighbor, but that I may honor Him by using these gifts properly, putting them at the disposal of my brothers and my sisters, by my humble service to them."

And the virtue of justice says, "let me give to my neighbor that regard, that esteem, that affectionate concern, that is rightfully due him or her as a fellow child of God, utterly dependent like myself on God for any good that any of us has or that we may do."

Elitism and snobbery . . . how far are they from these!

Kevin Jones

"My husband is a Catholic school teacher. He found out, in conversation with one of his female colleagues, that she presumed he had written it and I had put my name on it."

Ack. I have a friend who teaches theology at a Catholic school, whose wife just gave birth to their third child. He's already getting a few ribbings about family size.

As for the Episcopalians, let them invoke the mystical saying from Jorge Luis Borges' "Tlon Uqbar, Orbis Terrarum":

Both mirrors and sexual intercourse are evil, for both multiply the numbers of mankind.

Maclin Horton

I'm pretty much with Fr. Martin. This is more funny than anything else, and that in itself is a pretty sad commentary on the EC. Having been a member for a while, I can vouch for what Child-friendly above says about the barely-hidden anti-Catholicism in the EC. Especially strong among liberals, where historic Anglican hostility meets theological and political grudge.

It's entirely possible if not probable that her and her husband's ecological footprint is larger than that of my family when we had six people in a small house.

Catholic Mom

Actually, you are probably correct about her ecological footprint being larger than yours. If you read the entire interview you will see that she and her husband are maintaining two households. He will join her New York when the time "makes sense" to do so.

Barbara

Judy--No, Episcopalians have the same Biblical canon as Catholics--we put the controversial books in the Apocrypha. We are supposed to use the RSV (or,unfortunately, the NRSV)--which are both very scholarly and very well-written. You'd never know it from what goes on in ECUSA/TEC nowadays, but there are real riches in Anglicanism, which is why some of us stay to fight(although at this point, we're mostly manning the life-boats as the ship sinks lower and lower). As an over-educated Piskie with four children, all I can do is offer profound apologies to my Catholic bretheren. We who fight for real Anglicanism are continually horrified by our new PB; we also remember with gratitude His Holiness' kind words of encouragement to those Episcopalians who met at Plano in 2003 to begin the building of a new Anglican church in North America.

Embarassingly Episcopalian in San Diego

Now a doddering old fart, I've been an Episcopalian since childhood. Amazingly, it was not until this summer, after the General Convention when Ms. Schori was 'elected', that I even HEARD of what has really been going on in the upper ranks of the ECUSA. Since then, I've discovered most other Episcopalians are equally in the dark. Maybe this is unique to us; maybe not. Just in case ---------
Starting about 30 years ago an upstart group calling themselves "Integrity" began promoting acceptance for gays in the Episcopalian church. Over time this 'acceptance' group morphed into a Washington DC style Political Action Committee, extraordinarily well funded and as adept at power politics as any government lobbying group. The Episcopalian clergy were ill equipped to sensibly react to the swarm of pressure tactics focused on them by Integrity and simply conceded. Seems no one wanted to be labeled an 'exclusionist' or 'prejudiced'. Eventually, according to clergy I've since interviewed, clergy grew embarrassed at their lack of defense of their church. This is the best I can come up with to explain why there was never a note of warning voiced by anyone in any Episcopal church I know of.
Integrity (and more recently its many spin-offs) was very focused and successful. Planning for every General Convention began 3 or 4 years in advance, with very specific goals and targets adopted and pushed for. Drafts of hoped for new Rules and Proclamations were written by Integrity staff members. Supporters among friendly clergy and lay representatives were identified, and those who would sponsor each hoped-for piece of legislature were selected. Lobbying became intense. Bishop elections were carefully evaluated; candidates who were Integrity-friendly were found, promoted, and lobbied for. One minister I spoke with said the gay lobbying group at this years' convention was so overwhelming he was simply relieved to be on a plane departing the convention and 'back in the real world'.
This 'hostile takeover' of the ECUSA has been so successful some parishes believe the ECUSA to be a lost cause - THIS is the real reason for the exodus. Splinter cells now exist in almost every parish in the country, chartered with the primary task of 'quickly reporting back to the national organization any activity that might be adverse to the goals of Integrity'. Most might assume Integrity's mission statement to be 'promoting acceptance of the gay lifestyle'. Those who assume this will be stunned to learn the real agenda: "Reducing Systemic Heterosexuality in the ECUSA"!!! (See integrityusa.com and click on mission statement).
So here we are now - the national organization is owned and run by this small (representing < 5%) group only because of their political war machine; all Episcopalian seminaries in the US save 2 are ultra liberal (so the next generation of ministers will have been preprogrammed and selected for revisionist bent); most new Bishops are, as a minimum, Integrity-friendly, or perhaps even Integrity planted; Presiding Bishops, even with false or inadequate experience, are ramrodded through an 'election'; the back-office voters of things national are overwhelmingly far-left. It is no wonder so many parishes consider the ECUSA a lost cause.
As a footnote, there is rumor afoot that Integrity actually forecast the loss of members and determined that a 20% loss would be 'acceptable' to achieve their goals. Perhaps someone with inside knowledge of Integrity’s workings can confirm or refute this .........
So, those who react to Schori's remarks perhaps should step back and understand the reality of the situation. Here in Southern California the new Bishop, soon after the General Convention, sent a letter to all clergy in his Dioceses saying, in effect, to either get on board with the new paradigm or find another job. There may be little or no concern what others think about the war plans - with the goal in site, and about $3 Billion in real estate nearly in their grasp, it may be the last thing of consequence to them weather feathers are ruffled.

Barbara

Kelly-- It was kind of you to restate Schori's awful sentence, but (a) based on everything else I've heard from her, I suspect that she meant it the way she said it and (b) she didn't give the real reasons, which are that the average Episcopalian is 56 years old, and that the church's aggressive pursuit of the gay agenda means that we are taking in people who normally don't reproduce, while driving out the remaining families with children.

John

It sounds like Schori is a graduate of the JFK* Academy of Public Relations.

Did you know that most soldiers in Iraq are either Catholic or Mormon?

*JFK = John Forbes Kerry

PMcGrath

Regarding Terry C's remarks above that "in the not too distant future that instead of coming to the Catholic Church in ones and twos an entire Episcopalian congregation, complete with priests and deacons will petition a Catholic bishop to be joined in union with Rome.

No, I think it's going to be bigger than that. Here's what I think will happen:

  1. There will be a formal rupture -- a schism -- between the faithful and the faithless wings of the Anglican Communion, worldwide.
  2. The faithful wing will form itself into a polity, and choose Abp. Akinola (or someone like him) as (to choose a title) their Patriarch.
  3. The Anglican Patriarch petitions Rome for a reunion. It's the Union of Brest-Litovsk all over again!
Naomi

Barbara said:

the[Episcopal] church's aggressive pursuit of the gay agenda means that we are taking in people who normally don't reproduce, while driving out the remaining families with children.

You know, the idea that gay men and lesbians "don't reproduce" is like that "fact" that a duck's quack doesn't echo. It just isn't so. Some people who identify as gay or lesbian don't do so until after they have attempted marriage, complete with children. Many women have used anonymous donors to have children with female partners. There's also a very high out-of-wedlock pregnancy rate among lesbian teenagers; I suspect this could be because they are trying to find out whether they can have sex with a boy and don't know they can get pregnant the first time.

Maclin Horton

A sobering illustration of what a determined cadre of activists can do, EEiSD. My sojourn of a few years in the EC was in the late '70s, and I thought much the same dynamic was at work in the Prayer Book and women's ordination controversies. My pastor at the time was quite open about taking pleasure in the departure of conservatives, although, thinking back, I suspect things probably have gone farther than he would have wanted them to (he was in his '60s then so I assume is probably not around or at least not active anymore).

It's been a little disturbing, over the years since I left, to watch the sort of Brezhnev doctrine of the "reformers" at work. When they're trying to shake something loose, it's all openness and dialog and inclusion. Once they've won, the matter at issue becomes non-negotiable, and it's their way or the highway. That seems to be in play with the Robinson election now: there's no question of a retreat, only how long to maintain a tactical pause.

All you 'piskies apologizing, please know that we know Schori isn't the whole story. God bless you in your efforts to keep the faith.

Fidei Defensor

Catholic commedian Stephen Colbert is one of 11 kids, both his parents were highly educated professionals (it shold be noted that Connan O'Brien comes from a very similar backround). It is also worth noting that Colbert went to an Episcopal High School. I'll bet Colbert and Connan have picked up on this story, see it's commedic potential, and are probably more than a little willing to toss a few barbs back at this "Bishop." All that remains to be seen is if the powers-that-be at the networks would be comfortable with either of these guys unleashing their formidable sense of wit and satire on this lady.

Janne

Kelly, at first I thought your comment tongue-in-cheek. However, your later excusations seem to reveal that you, in fact, hold very much the same beliefs as Dr. JS, only you would have expressed them in much more sensitive and charitable terms. BTW, don't know much about Mormon "theology" but my simplistic handle on Catholic theology is that putting one's faith and trust in one's Creator means leaving it up to Him whether or not and when one might be blessed with the opportunity to share with Him in the Grace of Procreation. In other words, what Dr. JS is clearly saying here is that Episcopalians, being smarter and better-educated than Catholics, don't trust that Father knows best. They're not only smarter than Catholics, they're smarter than God! So they will not leave such an important, earth-affecting, decision - like procreation - up to Him. Yup, Catholic theology teaches us dummies that such a view is VANITY (still a sin, I think). BTW, when He decides you are not going to bear children, and you - because you WANT one! - decide to manufacture one by artificial means, you are also over-riding His Wisdom and Catholic theology teaches that is also a sin. The whole point is: Do you trust God to run His operation? Guess TEC, Dr. JS, and even you, Kelly, do not.

Donald R.McClarey

What a sad end product of a once noble religion! Latimer and Ridley, as wrong as we Catholics think they were, went bravely to the stake for what they believed was true Christianity. Anglican missionaries in the 19th Century spent their lives willingly in service in Africa, bravely facing death and privation. To have it all end in this country and the rest of the West with people of the calibre of this ignorant ecclesiastical bureaucrat, to whom her faith is merely an outlet for her leftist politics, is more than dismaying. My condelences to our Episcopalian brothers and sisters.

Nate Metzger

This is similar to the Kerry comment from right before the election.

That one coffee mug reminded me of that picture of those troops in Iraq holding up a sign mocking Kerry's flub by spelling every word wrong in the sign.

But look...something to keep in mind. That this bishop said something amazingly daft is, I think, not near as interesting as the strong reaction seen here on this fine blog.

Yes yes, we have Chesterton and this Flannery person. And oh yes, Aquinas. He was smart, wasn't he? And lots of other smart cats in our long, sorted history. Fine. Whatever. This all seems irrelevant. While it is true that we have a fine intellectual tradition, it's also true that Catholics TODAY are--in generally--amazingly uneducated...about Catholicism. Knowledge of Catholicism among Catholics is sometimes non-existent. It's some of the most pathetic stuff I've ever seen (and I'm speaking from the perspective of a protestant convert). So while we Catholiks aren't a bunch of mouth-breathers, it is still the case that those Catholics who ascend to the upper ranks of society (professional and graduate school, journalism, law, what have you) are usually so ignorant of their own faith that comments like those of the fair bishop from Nevada can only be met with any criticism from the blogging world, by those few among us who have the wherewithal to find offense. However smart we might be, in our large, large numbers, we obviously aren't smart in the areas that count. : )

I guess my point is that, however many kids we have, and however smart they are (or aren't), as long as they are dumb about their own faith, tripe like this coming from the bishop will be the going opinion, worthy of note in the papers, and only objected to among the huddled bloggers. As as long as this is the going thing, it ain't ganna do no good to say, "Well, Aquinas was smart, now, wasn't he!" What do we have now, today, in 2006?

Blind Squirrel

She's clearly a bit of a halfwit, God love her. But the sensible--as well as the Christian--response is just to let it go. People say stupid things all the time: there's no need to fire off angry e-mails complaining about each one. My colleagues here say considerably more offensive things than this about Catholics almost every day.

Maclin Horton

No offense, Nate, but are you new to the Catholic blog world? Your complaint is a pretty constant theme, here and on many other blogs.

Kelly

Janne, no I am not a KJS sympathesizer. I was only saying that there is sociological data on the make-up of various denominations. Episcopalians have a greater percentage of members with four year college degrees or graduate degrees than any other denomination. They also have a greater average income. They are, technically, better educated.

Higher degrees of education also correlate sociologically with lower birth rates. So if Episcopalians have more degrees, they would probably also have fewer babies.

What she was wrong on, was to imply that Catholic membership isn't declining so steeply because of our theological views. American Catholicism is held up by immigration right now.

If she was speaking referring to sociological data, then it was unclear, but that could be what she meant. As I said, I agree that it reads more like a dig at those ignorant Catholics who don't know any better than to keep having babies.

Tom Ryan

Nate,
Fine. Complain about ignorant Catholics whose faith-ed is at grade 3 even as they complete doctorates in astronomy. I can be with you on that.

But that was not the reported direction of the head of the Episcopal Church. She implied, as reported anyway, that our lack of education led to less stewardship and more reproduction.

Kelly,
As far as I can tell, the history of the episcopal church usa (in those same college courses you cite) should honestly reflect how it is they are the richest or near so. It was and is not always a pretty picture.


Rich Leonardi

American Catholicism is held up by immigration right now.

Is that really so? Converts are shouldering some of the burden. I included the following figures from Sherry Weddell in an essay I wrote for the Cincinnati Enquirer last year:

In fact, there is a veritable boom of new converts. Due to the confusion that followed the implementation of Vatican II, adult converts fell dramatically, from a high of 145,000 new members in 1960 to approximately 75,000 annually during the heyday of dissent in the mid-'70s. But that trend completely reversed under John Paul II.

Since 1994, 23,000 more adults have entered the church every year compared with 1960. An average 163,000 adults entered the church annually between 1994 and 2003. That's more than 1.6 million adult converts in only 10 years.

Patrick Rothwell

KJS is now threatening the Episcopal Bishop of San Joaquin with deposition. She accuses him of committing "spiritual violence." {Barf!}

http://www.episcopalchurch.org/3577_79844_ENG_HTM.htm

Marc

Isn't she a double-divorcee?
She fits well with the SF values crew (Pelosi, Hilary etc.)

Patrick Rothwell

Dunno about that, but her own mother left ECUSA for Eastern Orthodoxy because of women's ordination, and she has been publicly accused of frustrating her mother's wishes to have an Orthodox burial. If that allegation is true, and William Tighe wrote that he knows for a fact that it is, then she is a profoundly evil woman.

Sue T.

If Episcopalians have a greater average income as Kelly says, then I wonder how they use that wealth. For example, is their charitable giving higher than in other denominations? If not, then Bishops Schori's comments become even more questionable.

She assumes that limiting family size automatically means better stewardship (which I don't agree with). However, the inverse may be true as well. Sometimes people limit family size so they can acquire more material goods. In other words, purposely limiting family size may result from consumerism and materialism rather than a sense of stewardship.


Susan S.

The treatment of Bishop Schori here is quite unChristian and pretty base. Given the problems in our own church, maybe we should focus on our own faith and leaders and worry less about the struggles in the Episcopal church. Her treatment here is rather unseemly and embarrassing for all involved.

Janne

Sorry, but, being just a dumb Catholic, I gotta see that study you keep referring to, Kelly. I wanna digest the stats by my own self. I mean, I trust God with my life, but I don't trust everyone who spits out "facts" or "factoids" especially in these days when you can manufacture or manipulate stats to reflect/confirm/affirm any position or statement. I think it's bunkum! Intelligence does not equal wisdom. De-breeding because you're "smarter" than the other guys is not only contrary to God's law, it's contrary to Darwin's law of survival of the fittest! How do you keep a group (race, species, ethnic, national, religious, etc., etc.,) from dieing out? Um, Uh, you keep breeding?! That's what the "liberal" "elite" have sort-of cottoned-on to recently. They're a dieing breed, because they're not a-breeding! I mean, the excuse I always attributed to such as they was Selfishness (I Want a New Car/House/TV/Vacation/etc. before I'm tied to a Child!) and Vanity (MY Child Shall have all the best education/activities/toys/home/etc. thereby reflecting on MY ability to provide all the best - of necessity that requires I limit myself to only one child). Now Dr. JS has revealed that TEC folk, are really being altruistic and have limited themselves procreatively because they are good stewards - AND SMARTER THAN GOD! Which I guess is even worse than being selfish and vain!

Alan

This reminds me of an speech by Congresswoman Maxine Waters. She bewailed the bad old days when it was illegal for her mother to get an abortion. I really doubt that she realized what she was saying.

Dan

The revealing thing is that she didn't exactly have the remark about Catholics pried out of her. When she made the remark, the only thing she had been asked was: "How many members of the Episcopal Church are there in this country?"

Ken

Well, when Our Episcopalian Betters breed themselves into extinction they won't be around to lecture us about Stewardship of the Earth, will they?

Just like Euros and Muslims.
Or Mirandans and Reavers.

Susan Peterson

Terry C-

What you predict has already happened, more than once. Most recently, in Scranton Pa, most of an Episcopal congregation followed their priest into the Catholic Church, and their priest will soon be ordained as a Catholic priest. They worship at St. Clare's Roman Catholic Church right now, but once their priest, Eric Bergman, is ordained, they plan to buy a church. They now call themselves the St. Thomas More Society of St. Clare's church. The congregation has been supporting Mr. Bergman and his family as he prepares to be ordained. Here is the URL of their website.

http://www.stthomasmoresociety.org/

Susan Peterson

The Waffling Anglican

Great googly-moogly, please don't look at all of us through the lens of the Presiding Heresiarch and her Satanic minions. Now if I could just get my (Continuing Anglican with nothing to do with these people) parish to swim the Tiber en masse...

Jeff

Just to add some more fuel to this fire, there's an post by Terry Mattingly on GetReligion about what the PB said in an interview regarding the path to salvation:

http://www.getreligion.org/?p=2032

I would point everyone especially to the part where he excerpts a part of the radio interview toward the end of the post.

Antique

Malcom,

I appreciate your support and agree with your analysis, but please note: the "reformers" ARE the orthodox, traditionlists, reasserters, etc. Reform: to form again, as in to put back the way it was before it got all changed about.

Not to knit-pick, but having allies such as are on this blog, it would be a sad, unfortunate thing to have the wrong group singled-out as the heritical group. I believe you meant to say revisionists, who also like to call themselves inclusionist, innovators, unitarians. Of course, both sides use the more derogatory terms of liberals and conservatives as labels for the OTHER side.

To those who charitably suggest ++Shori meant to communicate something else or her words are humorous to the point of making one laugh so hard as not to be overly concerned:

Please. Please understand clearly. While the problems can be traced back 70 years or more, the truly damaging work was done in the late 1970's. The result was the 1979 prayer book. Not that the prayer book itself is the problem, but the attitudes and private agendas got their feet in the door by way of the changes.

The orthodox among the church challenged many of those changes, saying, "This is poorly written. It could be taken to mean something entirely different than catholic views and teachings." They were assured with vague responses, "Oh, don't get your knickers in a twist! It's only modern language. We don't mean any of the things you are suggesting. It will be OK. Trust us."

Then, as the decades passed and more and more heritical views crept in, those same innovators turned to the new prayer book and said, in effect, "See? It's right here in our official documents. We can do that. There's nothing wrong with it. And we interpret it that way because we can."

Please. ++Shori's comments weren't funny. The same attitude back in the late 1970's is what allowed this heresy to gain ground. It isn't funny. It is a peek at a carefully planned agenda to turn a Christian denomination into anything but Christian but still retain that appelation. Do not be charitable to such comments. The only charity offered should be to call her firmly on the account and demand a detailed explanation. Give her a chance to explain, if she can, but do not at all find this humorous. This is exactly how the "innocent little changes in canon and doctrine" have eroded into what it is.

We need allies. We need the rest of Christendom to stand up and speak loudly and clearly that what the see and read and hear is heretical. The Pope would do well, I think, after his meeting with ++Rowan, to say something along the lines of, "The Roman Catholic Church would be willing to discuss communion status with the World Anglican Church, except for its provinces in the USA and Canada, which we find to be wholly heretical and unworthy of the title Christian."

You see, my friends in Christ, it is only a small percentage on either side that are waging this debate. The 80/20 rule quite applies. We're looking at roughly 80 percent of the EC who don't know what's been going on, don't want to know, don't care and don't want to get involved. They want only to stick to their routines of popping-off to church on Sunday morning and buying a box of dough-nuts on the way home. I could give some commentary on this group, both good and bad, but not in this blog.

Of the other 20 percent, it's split roughly equal between the reformers and the innovators. Unfortunately by now, the innovators have a hugely disproportionate populace in the clergy and the seminaries. The latter is worse, as each year more liberal clergy is cranked-out to support the liberal "theology."

The reformers, while certainly needing help, can stand on their own if they have to. They know the problem and have committed to fight it. We need the extremely vocal assistance of true biblical believers everywhere to gain back the EC, though. It may come to pass the EC is a lost cause and goes on its way with the title "Episcopal" but in no way is anglican nor catholic. The reformers will then have to organize something that is (anglican and catholic, that is).

But as to the 80 percent, they will simply go where the EC goes. Blindly. Without question. So long as they don't have to be bothered to read and think and ask questions and discuss the matter within their own family and their fellow parishoners. The innovators are lost to God. Some may be saved, yes, but mostly they are reinventing God to be whatever they want him to be. Next year, he'll be something else, whatever is in vogue at that time.

The 80 percent, while they may deserve harsh words for intentionally denying any involvement in their own and their children's salvation, at least deserve the support of the rest of the catholic body.

Please, don't laugh at ++Shori's remarks. Don't shrug your shoulders as though it were a misspoken phrase. Perhaps it was this time, but it is seriously in line with her stated beliefs (or lack thereof). Don't pooh-pooh this.

Speak up. Have your parish rector speak up. Have your diocesan bishop speak up. Have the Pope speak up. Denounce this heresy.

Connie

Wow, such a lot of libel in these comments! We don't like what she said about Catholics, so we are free to trash her here. Marc's lie about twice divorced is probably the worst, but only by a little.

Susan S.

We should remember how pained we are when people of other faiths trash Catholics and Catholicism. These kind of school-yard sniveling and nastiness is very unbecoming.

EcceAdam

To set the record straight, KJS is NOT a divorcee. She has been married for many years to her husband, Dick Schori, and has one daughter.

I would like to add my own experience here: until earlier this year, I worked on her staff in the Diocese of Nevada. I now work in Washington DC for the Catholic Church, and am proud to call myself today a Roman Catholic. As does my wife, who is the great niece of a former Presiding Bishop, from years ago.

Tom

Sounds like Schori is a proponent of a neo-Albigensianism. Perhaps her brand of "Christianity" will travel the same path.

Ret. Episcopalian, Acitve Anglican

I would recommend that the 'Presiding' read [assuming she has never read]Vernon Staley, "THE CATHOLIC RELIGION, A manual of instruction for members of the Anglican Communion" containing one of my favorite quotes. "...the opposite of catholic is not protestant, but heretic."

Julie

Boy, Ms. Schori did go into attack mode after being asked how many Episcopalians there are.
Stewardship? Less breeding? More educated?
Yeah. Yeah. That's the ticket.
And Alan. LOL! Maxine Waters bewailed the fact that her mother couldn't get an abortion??
Ha ha!

William Tighe

What Patrick Rothwell wrote is indeed true. PB Schori's mother was a member of St. Spyridon Orthodox Cathedral in Seattle, WA. Another member of that cathedral for many years is one Bob Koch whom I met in 1985 and who has been assiduous in spreading the story of how Mrs. Ryan (K J-S's mother) was barely dead when the daughter appropriated her mother's corpse and refused to allow her an Orthodox funeral.

Of course, KJ-S's parents were both originally Catholics, and became Episcopalians in 1963, when their little daughter, the future Flaminica, was nine years old. I don't know why they left the Catholic Church. Subsequently the parents divorced, and Mrs. Ryan, a firm opponent of the "ordination" of women, left the Episcopal church over it and became Orthodox. One report that I have read claims that KJ-S's father and siblings remain Episcopalians to this day, but, in fact, do not practice any religion. I have not been able to verify this, however.

AJP

Kelly,

Thanks for raising those points. Schori's comments were offensive, but in large part they were true. Episcopalians as a group are wealthier and have more college degrees than the rest of America. Compared to us Catholics *as a group*, Episcopalians are better educated and richer. And there is a strong correlation between high socio-economic status and low birthrates. This is true for nearly every population - it's not a phenomena unique to the ECUSA. Also, certain folks who are heavily invested in environmentalism tend to have few or no children, and if many of these folks are ECUSA, this also will affect the birthrate of Episcopalians.

These are simple facts. We can certainly debate whether or not it is a good thing that highly educated, wealthy people don't have as many children as the rest of the population. But we shouldn't confuse stating simple demographic facts with the debate over the morality of certain demographic trends.

This is what puzzles me about Schori's comments. She could have easily stuck to the facts - she didn't need to bring Catholics and Mormons into it and slam us. The inaccuracy of what she said is troublesome too. I don't know about Mormons, but the Catholic birthrate isn't that different from the general population's birthrate. Furthermore, our theology does not *demand* large families - not all orthodox Catholics have several children and (this point is so often lost in these kinds of discussions) not all large Catholic families are necessarily orthodox. Remember that Pope John Paul II was the youngest of two, Pope Benedict is the youngest of three, while Ted Kennedy is the youngest of nine. I wonder what Ms. Schori would say about that!

Craig Goodrich

Marion muses,

I am led to wonder whether similarly arrogant and elitist notions inform other of the Bishop's views, and perhaps, even those of any number of members of her sect.

Nearly all of ??Schori's views are informed by similarly arrogant and elitist notions. As are the views of an alarmingly large number of her current clergy.

Oddly enough, back when I was confirmed in the 1950s (I'm a doddering old fart, too), in a small midwestern town in an Anglo-Catholic Episcopal diocese, the only sign of elitism that I ever noticed was our smug satisfaction on major Feasts that our procession was much more organized and orderly in lining up outside getting ready for the service than the Catholics across the street were. But then, our crucifer and thurifer had both been Marines in the war and tolerated no nonsense from the acolytes...

As usual, those with the least defensible claim to any sort of superiority are among the first and loudest to proclaim themselves moral arbiters...

anon

"There's also a very high out-of-wedlock pregnancy rate among lesbian teenagers; I suspect this could be because they are trying to find out whether they can have sex with a boy and don't know they can get pregnant the first time."

I read the Washington Post every day, and somehow I missed this factoid. Is there a source?

Christopher T. Cantrell+

As a cradle-Episcopalian, an Anglican priest, the son of an Anglican priest, with eight siblings (all five of my sisters are named Mary) I am most appreciative of the notice of our predicament taken here. I certainly agree with the earlier poster in the hope that the Holy Father will likewise take notice as he meets with the Archbishop of Canterbury. We need all the help we can get. Thank you all.

Naomi

Anon, I shouldn't have added that last bit without having a source; I'll poke around some.

Thanks for calling me on it. There's an awful lot of mythical statistics cobbled around sexual issues these days.

Jovan-Marya Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

I can only thank God that my eyes were open in the '70's when (then) PECUSA began its leftward slide into the abyss. I seem to recall we had about 3-3.5 million members at that point. I left shortly before they first "ordained" women officially, but after the "illegal ordinations" in which a personal friend participated as one of the Bishops. After a sojourn in Byzantium, I swam the Tiber in 1980. I look with great sadness on what TEC has become.

Kensy

I feel like a dufus for asking this, but could someone tell me who the personalities on the mug are?

I know that's Chesterton over the "tS" and think it's Aquinas over the "Kai", but could someone tell me who the others are?

Thanks

Liam

Flannery O'Connor, the muse of our gracious hostess and at least some of her comboxers (I found Amy's original site years ago via a search on Flannery and was hooked), is over the OR.

What Flannery would have said or written in reply to Bishop Schori is the source of deep amusement in my mind....

Liam

It’s the image used on the cover of the Library of America volume devoted to her complete works (which you should have and read):

http://itsnt166.iowa.uiowa.edu/uns-archives/2003/february/images/022703workshop-flannery.jpg

Personally, my favorite image of her is the photo of her next to her iconic self-portrait:

http://cache.eb.com/eb/image?id=21545


Some of us wonder if we may get to see that image in tapestry over a balcony at St Peter’s one day.

Zach Frey

Isn't she a double-divorcee?

Sadly, this isn't slander so much as a mixup in names. --Schori has never been divorced. I assume the writer is mixing her up with the recently-elevated bishop of Northern California, Barry Beisner -- who is on wife #3.

The Episcopal Church -- day by day, increasingly hard to either parody or slander. God have mercy.


peace,

arden

Perhaps this was a joke to be told by John Kerry and the PB couldn't get it right?

Paul Demetree

Kate Schori is clearly an idiot. I can assure you that my family and I are Episcopalian and love our Church but we have nothing in common with Ms. Schori and we can only hope that one day we are as smart as the Catholics. Her arrogance is unbelieveable.

Julia

What's with all the initials and symbols?
ECUSA
PECUSA
TEC
SBC
RC
+++

On Anglican websites I've even seen PDA with no explanation that doesn't seem to mean "public display of affection" or Personal Digital Assistant.

Is this a particularly Episcopalian way of expressing oneself, simply a form of shorthand or a code of some sort? Or do rich Episopalians pick up the habit text-messaging and RCs can't afford that service so we don't learn the lingo?

Also: why are we always described by others as Roman Catholics? I think it's only in English-speaking countries that the term is used.
We are Catholics who happen to be in the Roman Rite. Some of us are in the Chaldean or Ukranian Rite, but we are Catholics.

Nancy

When this Episcopal woman went this past summer to visit the local Catholic priest I told him I was a refugee from the Episcopal church. He had no idea what I was talking about. Bet he does now thanks to Bishop Schori!

Margaret

To the trembling souls who forebear to offend their Episcopalian brother through use of mockery and satire, be at peace. As an Episcopalian, I can assure you we deserve these comments and much, much more.

If you love your hell-bent brother, exercise hard truth and tough love as fiercely as you can. Barbed humor is also needed in fending off the same stupidity and error from your own communion.

We are in a culture war. Humor is an invaluable weapon for pointing out reality and deflating lies and humbuggery, and is not to be eschewed. Through satire, the enemies of Christ might catch a glimpse of what they look like.

Jesus called people "whitewashed sepulchres," "thieves," "hirelings," "hypocrites," etc, if it makes you feel any better.

Pax Christi

Dave Hartline of Catholic Report alerted his readers to these developments. I find these comments most interesting, especially Terry Ward’s list of hard-hitting questions. No doubt the RC Church has its “crazinesses” to deal with and trying hard to keep the likes of KJS from deceiving the flock with the false doctrines that Christ warned were to come. Dave and his readers have some things to say about this as well at: http://www.catholicreport.org

CryptoCatholic

Although (thanks be to God) many issues have been sorted out in the last decade or so, there are still some lamentably wide divisions in Christendom. One of the points of disagreement is on what constitutes a Catholic Christian. Anglicans, Orthodox, and Lutherans consider themselves (and each other, generally speaking) to be Catholic too, which makes the term "Roman Catholic" useful in avoiding confusion.

Cheers,

Phil H
(currently steering a lifeboat for a few Episcopalians)

Christopher Johnson

Kensy,

From left to right, we have Augustine, Anselm, Thomas Aquinas, Chesterton, Flannery O'Connor and Eudora Welty.

Christopher Johnson

And I should point out that the inspiration for it came from another Anglican blogger named Greg Griffith at Stand Firm who put this together after Charles Rangel insulted Mississippi.

Ed the Roman

Naomi,

The idea that people who are disinclined to reproductive sex will reproduce at rates at all comparable to the people that they refer to laughingly as "breeders" is differently astute. Particularly as there are now far fewer long-closeted gays who marry and start families than there were in the dark days B.S. (Before Stonewall).

In summary, once TEC passes 50% gay it will have passed the Schwarzchild Limit as far as maintaining a number of cradle Episcopalians that is worth mentioning. In 2056, my guess is that there will be less than half the Episcopalians that there are now, and more than 80% of them will be adult converts.

Julia

"Anglicans, Orthodox, and Lutherans consider themselves (and each other, generally speaking) to be Catholic too, which makes the term "Roman Catholic" useful in avoiding confusion."

I knew about some of the Anglicans, but I'd never heard that Orthodox and Lutherans consider themselves Catholic, too. Amazing. What a lot of greif was unnecessary back in the 50s when neighborhood kids razzed us as cat-lickers and we responded by calling them pup-lickers.

Are you sure that it isn't just the high level theologians who used "Catholic" like that and not the regular guys in protestant churches? It was considered a real slur in my youth.


Marion (Mael Muire)

Julia, not only the English-speaking world makes the distinction between "Catholic" and "Roman Catholic", for members of the Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association designate themselves Catholic as well:

[The following is copied and abridged from wikipd artcl.]: The Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association, abbreviated CPA, CPCA, or CCPA, a division of Beijing's Religious Affairs Bureau, has oversight over China's Catholics and is the only organizational body of Catholics in China officially recognized by the government of the People's Republic of China.

Officially, religious organizations in mainland China today must be government-recognized and approved, as the Communist Party of China wants no organization in mainland China owing allegiance to "foreign influence", in this case, the Pope. Thus, the CPCA - under pressure of the Communist government - had to declare rejection of papal authority and non-acceptance of formulations of Catholic teaching and instructions issued by the Holy See after 1949, the year communists gained power over entire continental China.

Julia, world-wide, there any number of religious entities using the designation Catholic. What distinguishes them is this: the entity is either in communion with the Holy See in Rome, or it rejects the authority of the Holy See in Rome.

Whether in England or across the globe in Communist China, there may be found Catholics who are free to be embrace fidelity to Rome, and those who are not.

Thus, the term Roman Catholic once used as a perjorative by English Protestants to chide Catholics for their "allegiance to a foreign power, in this case, the Pope," has, in our day, come to possess a truly world-wide utility.

I can't think of a more useful expression!

Marion (Mael Muire)

Julia,

I forgot something, and hasten to add, that there are also numerous Catholic bodies, united with the Holy Father in Rome, but calling themselves something other than Roman Catholic. These are the Uniate (united with the Holy Father in Rome and with the Catholic Church) bodies of the Eastern rite.

Liam

Marion

I would note that Uniate is often considered a perjorative term by members of eastern Churches in communion with the Pope.

Marion (Mael Muire)

Thanks for the info, Liam.

I, for one, welcome any distinguishing term that (a) does a good job of keeping the reality of the situation in sharp focus, and (b) does not, in itself, denote any pejorative meaning.

(Neither "Uniate" nor "Roman", as adjectives, is a pejorative in and of itself. As opposed to, say, adjectives like, "phoney" or "@#%$0*!".)

A differencing adjective in itself innocuous, but originally intended as a pejorative might actually be the ideal in these cases, for such a term would be less likely to be appropriated by those who habitually so appropriate in the interest of blurring the distinction.

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