« Catechetical Wiki | Main | Ad of the day »

November 28, 2006

Comments

marianne

You show a Crescent as being "very related to the topic at hand". Is it ever Muslims objecting to Christ in Christmas here in the United States? Is it ever them objecting to "Merry Christmas"? Evidence please.

Al

the point is that no one complains about the crescent, right?

amy

The point is displays at the Christkindl Festival - what's acceptable and what's not. Obviously.

Pes

The shahaada by the way is the declaration of Islamic faith, the submission that makes one Muslim.

The crescent has an interesting history. From Wikipedia:

The crescent was the symbol of the Sassanian Empire of Persia (Iran) and is prominently displayed on the crowns of its rulers. After the Arab conquest of that empire in 651 CE, it was gradually adopted by later caliphates and Muslim rulers as an established and recognized symbol of power in Western Asia.

So it was originally an imperial symbol taken over by a rival subjugating power. Interesting.

John Jansen

A public Christmas festival is no place for the Christmas story, the city says.

Today, boys and girls, we're going to learn about irony.

Ed

Yeah. And let's get rid of that Gregorian calendar. Because it was promulgated by Pope Gregory XIII ( a Catholic ! ), non-Christians and non-Catholics could possibly be offended.
Let's all demand that city documents carry Jewish and Islamic calendrical designations.

scotch meg

Amy, you ought to let people comment on your ad! I have both these books and use them with my children (over and over). They love the stories. I have also given them to my godson. They work as read-aloud in first and second grade for any child who is used to stories longer than picture books, and as read-to-self at about the third to fourth grade level. They continue to hold interest through about sixth grade, and older children will "sneak" them, as they do other "too easy" books.

DavBar

Amy needs to fess up and acknowledge the crescent is part of a number of religious symbols on display in Daley Plaza during the holidays, including a nativity scene and a manorah.

How about a little intellectual honesty here.

amywelborn

No 'fessing up" required, my dear. Went to Christkindl, saw the Crescent (and the menorah? I assume there was, but don't remember precisely) very near the Nativity scene. It was...interesting. Is it there all the time? I've no idea. And not a problem...until you start demanding that companies who made you, know, movies about the birth of Jesus withdraw because they might offend someone - which was the *explicit* reason given.

Maureen

This proves that you can post anything you want on public property, as long as you use a non-Latin alphabet.

The ACLU looooooves diversity, especially if it can't read it.

Mark

Davbar:

Do a thought experiment. Work with us here, buddy.

For some reason, a Muslim-themed festival is held on city property. There happens to be a big huge cross there. Christian cross. Do you think the situation would be comparable? Do you think the Muslims would say, "Oh, sure, leave the Cross there - it's okay!"

Do you think anyone would even allow it to get to that point?

No...it wouldn't. That cross would be gone in a second, as would a menorah or star of David.

DavBar

No demands were made, my dear. In the rush to declare the War on Christmas, maybe some facts and intellectual honesty are in order.

Why didn't you include pictures of the Nativity Scene and menorah in your post? Now that Kathryn Lopez at NRO is using you to make a point about the victimization of Christians, maybe you should clarify what was really going on.

Boris Berejan

So. Muslim symbol for holiday, check. Jewish symbol for holiday , check. Christian symbol, HOLD ON NOW are you crazy? someone might be offended.

Banning a clip from a movie about the Nativity from a festival named Christkindl ie "Christ Child" is too idiotic for words. WAY to go Chicago. I didn't think you could make more of a laughing stock of yourselves after the Walmart ban and the Foi Gras ban. You have outdone yourselves this time.

DavBar

Boris, did you miss the part that there IS a nativity scene in Daley Plaza. I've been there, seen it with my own eyes.

amywelborn

Davbar:

Perhaps because I don't assume my readers are idiots. Because you know, the article about this controversy clearly states the presence of the Nativity scene and the vendors selling, you know, religious-themed ornaments and such. In the paragraph that's above the first photo?

The point is - with the fact that it's a Christkindl festival, nativity stuff is everywhere, the decision to decline sponsorship of the er...Nativity Story because (as the statements goes) someone would be offended is insane.

Especially when it's not offensive in their eyes to include an enormous symbol of Islam in the decor.

Susan S.

Where was anything banned? Nothing was banned, the ACLU was not involved, and no one's free First Amendment rights were threatened.

Ellen

Davbar:

Did you not read the article Amy posted? For heaven's sake, it says right there that there are nativity scenes.

Ted

Davbar has obviously had is irony bone removed. That's too bad.

The point is: a plaza filled with Nativity scenes, but the "Nativity Story" would be "offensive." And then there's this Crescent...thrown up there for what reason? It's just silly and makes no sense.

Irony, man. Irony.

DavBar

I did read the story. But given that Amy and other commentators were misstating the facts in the story she quoted, it was a fair guess that people were not reading the facts in front of them.

John Jansen

This episode prompted me to recall a story my boss has told me several times -- also pertaining to an idiotic decision made by Chicago's City Hall regarding a Nativity Scene in Daley Plaza.

Around this time of year several years ago, my boss got a phone call from a friend who urged him to come downtown right away, as city employees were acting on orders to remove the figures from the Nativity scene that had recently been set up in Daley Plaza. (City Hall had apparently grown nervous -- thanks, no doubt, to the ACLU -- that its previous decision to allow a Nativity scene in the public square would prompt a lawsuit, so the decision was made to pull the plug.)

My boss arrived to find the dismantling of the Nativity scene already very much in progress, with pieces being thrown into dumpsters. Not about to stand by idly while the figures of the Holy Family suffered the same fate, he and several others stepped forward. He held an angel, someone else held the baby Jesus, someone else the Virgin Mary, etc.

The city workers weren’t about to wrestle the figures away from anyone, so they went on their merry way.

My boss and several others remained in the plaza, holding the figures. They weren’t about to leave. There they remained for several hours, long into the evening.

Word quickly spread about the City Hall ordered raid on the Nativity scene, and concerned Christians began to arrive at the plaza to spell those who, by that time, were not a little cold and tired.

A handful of folks held the figures for several more hours, then they were replaced by the next “shift.” The figures were held throughout the night, and well into the afternoon of the next day.

By that time, an ambitious young pro-life attorney had managed to petition City Hall to allow the Nativity scene to be re-erected.

And so it was.

An odd saga, to be sure. But such is life in the dominion of King Richard the Younger.

amy

Davbar:

Where did I "misquote" anything in the story?

Where?

Susan S.

"And not a problem...until you start demanding that companies who made you, know, movies about the birth of Jesus withdraw because they might offend someone - which was the *explicit* reason given."

That's a misstatement of the facts of the situation. No demands were made.

Victor Morton

Susan:

As I said at my site: the words "chill" and "incentive structure" have meanings, even if the ACLU never formally lifts a finger.

Victor Morton

No formal demands were made under the full color of law, it is true.

The city merely "reminded" the festival organizers. "You got a nice parade there. Pity if something should happen to it."

CV

DavBar:

To recap, this story is about banning the sponsorship of a movie about the birth of THE CHRIST CHILD at a festival celebrating the birth of said Child. They don't call it the CHRISTKINDLMARKET for nothing.

I've been to this market and dropped quite a few bucks there. You cannot swing a bratwurst without hitting a beautifully carved Nativity scene, Advent calendar, or Christmas caroler.

Is the intellectual honesty (or lack thereof) becoming a bit clearer yet?

And the fact that this very same public plaza sports a giant Crescent next to the Menorah and Nativity scene while this event is going on dramatically underscores the lunacy of yanking this particular sponsor.

Get a clue, please.

Maggie

Yes, CV is correct. It's not a "war on Christmas" story - it's, as Amy pointed out, an "idiocy" story.

Victor Morton

Yes, but an "idiocy" that is only imaginable in the space created by the War on Christmas.

Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Working...
Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been saved. Comments are moderated and will not appear until approved by the author. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.

Working...

Post a comment

Comments are moderated, and will not appear until the author has approved them.

Your Information

(Name is required. Email address will not be displayed with the comment.)