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November 28, 2006

Comments

Father Wilson

Hey, everyone. Go to the Pell cathedral posting linked to above and scroll down til you get to the sketch of the bronze ambo. I have never seen anything like that in my life!!

CDB

Translation note: in Italian (as well as Spanish), "eventual" is more like "possible", whereas in English it generally refers to something that will certainly happen.

Todd

The fussing about abolition is a smokescreen for the reality of the situation:

1. There are not two Roman Rites, but one.

2. The Missal of 1970 was a reform of the previous Missal.

3. The use of the 1570/1962 Missal, unreformed by the directives of Vatican II, remains a curiosity at best, and a distraction or a banner for schism at worst.

4. The continued emphasis on the 1570/1962 Missal draws energy and effort from the real task of the Catholic liturgy: making it as humanly effective as possible by means of great music, great preaching, great art and architecture, etc..

If lovers of high church ritual, smells, bells, and the like want to continue, there's nothing stopping them from having a Latin-language Mass celebrated with appropriate pomp and spirituality--except perhaps that the traditionalist clergy are fixated on an unreformed and outdated Missal.

The wishful thinking about a "liberation" of an old Missal, given the repeatedly dashed hopes of every "leaked" promulgation date, is a little embarassing.

Commenter

Todd, it may be difficult for you to admit that you're wrong and that your own positions are seemingly quite dated, but if you want to talk about embarrassment, that is where it should lie.

It's pretty clear that something is in mind. That you can't acknowledge that says more about your rigidity than anything.

You come across as one angry and in denial about the situation.

Boko Fittleworth

Does anyone else play the game where one tries to guess the commentator based on the first few lines of the comment? I do this a lot when the name is below (or off) my screen. I score more points with Todd than any other poster. He's like LaDanian Tomlinson in fantasy football.

R

If you attend an indult Tridentine Mass, are you still a schismatic?

Richard

Hello Todd,

1. There are not two Roman Rites, but one.

Perhaps we should wait to see what the precise formula enunciated by the motu proprio says before making such bald statements.

2. The Missal of 1970 was a reform of the previous Missal.

I think that's open to debate - to put it mildly.

I think the current pontiff might argue the point.

Surely you concede that the changes introduced in the 1970 missal were much farther-reaching than the 1570 missal - or any previous revision of the Roman Rite. To pretend otherwise simply isn't tenable.

Do those changes end up making a new rite rather than a reform of the old? That's fodder for a real discussion, not a simple off-hand statement, I think.

3. The use of the 1570/1962 Missal, unreformed by the directives of Vatican II, remains a curiosity at best, and a distraction or a banner for schism at worst.

Certainly it does not embody some of the stated methods outlined by the Council to bring about its desired liturgical objectives. Certainly in some extreme cases, it has been a banner for...schism.

And certainly it also remains in continuity with the liturgical tradition of the Latin Rite in a way in which the Novus Ordo does not.

4. The continued emphasis on the 1570/1962 Missal draws energy and effort from the real task of the Catholic liturgy: making it as humanly effective as possible by means of great music, great preaching, great art and architecture, etc..

Perhaps the difficulty is that so much energy and effort is devoted to resisting any attempts to reform the N.O. in such a way as to actually fulfill the stated objectives of Sacrosanctum Concilium. In this regard, might it not be possible to regard the lifting of the indult (as rumored) has the objective of making the TLM more widely available not merely for its own sake, but to make it serve as a surer guide for the reform of the reform to bring it better in line with the continuity of the tradition?

The wishful thinking about a "liberation" of an old Missal, given the repeatedly dashed hopes of every "leaked" promulgation date, is a little embarassing.

Perhaps it's also a sign that the Novus Ordo - as implemented - has been less successful than hoped for in reforming the liturgy.

Or as one other observer put it:

"One cannot manufacture a liturgical movement but one can contribute to its development...J.A. Jungmann, one of the truly great liturgists of our century, defined the liturgy of his time, such as it could be understood in the light of historical research, as 'a liturgy which is the fruit of development.' ...What happened after the Council was something else entirely: in the place of liturgy as the fruit of development came frabricated liturgy. We abandoned the organic, living process of growth and development over centuries, and replaced it - as in a manufactured process - with a fabrication, a banal on-the-spot product."

- Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, preface to the French edition of Klaus Gamber, The Reform of the Roman Liturgy: Its Problems and Background

Richard

Hello R,

If you attend an indult Tridentine Mass, are you still a schismatic?

If it's an official indult mass, I don't see why you would be. It's valid and it's licit, presuming the rubrics are followed properly.

If you attend, say, an SSPX chapel...the relevant communications from the Roman congregations suggest that this is not in itself a schismatic act, unless the intention is to manifest schism, i.e., a rejection of the Vatican II Council or the authority of the Church as currently constituted. (Personally I'd avoid it just to be on the safe side.)

Tim Ferguson

Boko, I do the same thing, and have the same results you do!

I find it pretty repulsive to see someone write that a valid and approved liturgy of the Church is a "curiosity at best." Tell that to the hundreds of people with whom I worship each week, who find real spiritual nourishment at our parish. Are they a curiosity? If so, the number of young families with children seem to indicate that the curiosity will be with us for a good long time.

TerryC

I find myself agreeing with Todd.

"25. The liturgical books are to be revised as soon as possible; experts are to be employed on the task, and bishops are to be consulted, from various parts of the world." --Sacrosanctum Concilium

Reading the document, it is quite clear, to me at least, that it was their intention that the 1970 revision was to be a revision of the 1962 revision of 1570 Trent Missal.

As for the 1962 Missal, and its use...There is only one Roman Rite, and it is the Novus Ordo, why else would an indult be require to say a Mass using the 1962 Missal.

Quoting the Catholic Encyclopedia "Indults are general faculties (q.v.), granted by the Holy See to bishops and others, of doing something not permitted by the common law."

If the Tridentine were indeed a separate rite or version of the Roman Missal an Indult would not be required for its use.

Now was the revision done and promulgated as well as it should have been? Should the use of Latin been more specifically spelled out in the documents? Does the 1970 revision have too many available options for the various parts? These are all valid questions and should be answered, perhaps by another revision of the 30-year old N.O. But this is a separate question and does not speak to the issue of the Tridentine rite, which was replaced by the 1970 revision, except where its use was allowed by Indult.
As for this business of organic growth, there was basically almost no growth of the Tridentine Mass for 400 years. I somehow doubt that the groups who's rites were abolished by Trent's decision to make what became the 1570 Missal the universal rite thought that the change was either organic or natural. I respectful disagree with the learned Cardinal on this point--until such time as he, as Pope or the he and the magisterium see fit to to nullify or revise the revision.

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