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January 30, 2007
Reader Bleg
A reader writes:
My 23 year old cousin, who was born and raised Catholic, recently decided to leave the Church. He still believes in Christ, but claims that he can no longer support or participate in a church with which he does not agree on several issues. Foremost among these issues are the war in Iraq and immigration.
I’ve reminded him about the foundational things about our faith – the sacraments, the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Unfortunately, I believe that his politics are more important to him right now than the richness of the Catholic faith and the truths that it teaches. Lately, I believe he has been reading the Bible on his own and watching Joel Osteen on TV.
I’d appreciate it so much if you could enlist your readers to provide any additional advice I could pass on to my cousin. Are there any recommended book titles or solid parishes (he lives in Chicago )?
Posted by Amy Welborn | Permalink
Comments
I highly recommend George Wiegel's "The Truth of Catholicism."
It's a fairly easy read and looks at Catholic teaching through the prism of all of the "hot button" cultural issues that are a stumbling block to so many these days. I found it very persuasive and have passed it on to wavering family members myself).
As for Chicago area parishes, St. Mary of the Angels is wonderful:
http://www.smachicago.org
It is an inner city church rescued and restored by Opus Dei. You can be sure the formation there is solid, orthodox and persuasive (I particularly recommend Father Joseph Landauer).
Posted by: CV at Jan 30, 2007 8:57:52 AM
A guy I knew in the seminary was a convert from Lutheranism. He had a simple yet profound question: Where can I go to get as close to Jesus as possible?
He found the answer in the Eucharist which he now confects as a priest in the Southwest.
Posted by: Fr. D at Jan 30, 2007 9:09:12 AM
Lots of prayer. We need to understand we can't fix him. Only God can do that. Still something along the lines of Mark Shea's "By What Authority" might help. He makes a good case for why we should want to think with the mind of the church. He is right to be concerned when he sees his thinking as out of step with the church. This is a call to deeper conversion. Yes, it is a call to choose between the body of Christ and political leaders. That does not mean he has to change his opinion on the war and/or immigration. He just needs to surrender that thinking to God and allow the tradition of the church to mold his mind. He will come out changed even if he ends up checking the same box on election day.
Posted by: Randy at Jan 30, 2007 9:16:24 AM
You folks are going to jump all over me, but I would have him read "Why I am a Catholic" by Gary Wills. (See, I can hear you jumping already!) BUT someone who wants to leave the Church ISN'T going to be convinced by the kind of orthodox writers you are recommending, who write as if they never questioned the Church. Your cousin only going to be convinced by someone like Gary who has questioned the Church but has come to the conclusion that we have the full, true faith. The first part of his book is a very powerful witness to his personal journey and how a person can love the Church and still question it.
One of the things that Gary conveys in the middle part of the book, which is a brief history of the Church, is that we are a Church of sinners, and that we constantly need to challenge ourselves as a Church to return to the gospel message. That's the message that St. Francis brought to us, and Vatican II, and our whole history of reformers.
I'm not saying this is the greatest book in the world or that I would use it in an adult education class or anything (the books you are recommending are much better, I'm sure), but for someone who is leaving the Churhc, I think this is a good suggestion.
Posted by: Irene at Jan 30, 2007 9:26:08 AM
I'm afraid some of the book recommendations so far may convict the young man. I'm afraid I don't have any solid book recommendations. I don't think trivializing the knowledge he does have, that the bishops opposed the war in Iraq and that the bishops are opposed to throw-them-out immigration policy, is the best way to convince him of the teaching authority of the Church.
If he is sympathetic with Joel Osteen, then I would assume he is also quite sympathetic with the health and wellness gospel. You might be able to find some papers critical of the excesses of laizze faire from Michael Novak that shouldn't offend his senses. I wouldn't generally recommend Novak except that it appears the young man hasn't recognized any boundaries at all.
Posted by: M.Z. Forrest at Jan 30, 2007 9:33:53 AM
Sounds like this guy is leaving because he is putting his right-wing politics (pro-Iraq War/anti-immigrant) before his Catholic faith, which he construes to love immigrants and hate war more than he wants to. Plenty of people do that from the left too. Shouldn't people be recommending something that will help him get his theological/political ducks in proper order? Weigel and Wills won't do that because both have the similar problem, one from the Right, the other from the Left.
Posted by: Celine at Jan 30, 2007 9:42:58 AM
I'm a little confused. If he's disagreeing with the Bishops on immigration and Iraq, he must be leaning more strongly "conservative" politically, right?
Would it be advantageous to tell him that you can disagree with the positions on those two issues in good conscience, while trying to explain systematically why the Church teaches what it does currently on those issues?
And, to point out that the Church throughout history and throughout the world has not always been as connected to some of the liberal-leaning policies as currently?
In other words, you can be a Catholic in good faith without necessarily agreeing with those political issues. That the faith / doctrine / salvation / sacraments issues by far trump any currrent political issues. You can disagree on immigration and still be saved, but you really can't disagree on transsubstantiation in the same way.
Sounds like this young man is in agreement on theology, but not on political views.
Telling on myself, I guess, but I come from a more right-leaning political ideology, and if I felt I had to agree with the current left-leaning political policies with equal fervor as with the theological ones, I'd be in choppier waters than I am. By reading the history of the church, I can only come to the perspective that there have been lots of people with lots of varying politics throughout 20 centuries who were nonetheless Good Catholics.
And, in the meantime, I'm trying to conform my mind to the Church's official viewpoints, and try to understand in myself why my views sometimes *aren't* the same. It's been instructive and helpful to me, especially on the Immigration issue.
So I'd advise: emphasize that the politics and the theology are not even close to equal in this matter, I guess.
Posted by: MarkAA at Jan 30, 2007 9:52:39 AM
Would it help to explain to him that there is no binding Church teaching on the Iraq war or immigration policy? The principles are not disputable, of course, but there's a lot of disagreement about whether the Iraq war meets the criteria for a just war, or what policies are the best way to love our neighbors and welcome strangers.
Posted by: Anne-Marie at Jan 30, 2007 9:55:32 AM
I've seen this problem time and time again among young politically conservative cradle Catholics, though I've not known any personally to leave the faith entirely (they usually just stop going to Mass). The problem is, of course, as Celine has noted that these kids put politics above the Faith; but the fault here is chiefly with the priests and Bishops who have taught them so to do by making the USCCB a lobbying wing of the Democratic party (in many cases). If I had to guess, I'd bet he grew up in some parish with an old Cdl. Bernardin protegee and has finally just had it.
Since he still seems to want to be close to God, though, there is hope! I've seen two paths that save young men from devotion to Repulicanism or Conservatism over the Faith to the proper ordering of the Faith over politics: Opus Dei, as the commenter above mentioned; and also traditional Catholicism. And in Chicago, of course, he has the good fortune of easy access to both (If he has a soul open to grace and beauty at all and could be convinced to hear Mass at St. John Cantius http://www.cantius.org/ for a few weeks, he could never leave the Church!)
In short, I'd recommend that you try to convince him to go to various of the high liturgies at St. John Cantius and try attending some Opus Dei spiritual event -- an evening of recollection, probably, would be easiest to find & attend.
And by all means, make sure he sees books by Novak, Weigel, Neuhaus, etc, that show that you can be a good Catholic and still be a political conservative. And FLEE Gary Wills, that heretic, like the plague!
By the way, if you would like / think it would help, email me at AmbroseOfMilan@gmail.com and I'd be glad to try corresponding with this young man. Anything to keep an earnest young soul in the Church of Christ!
Posted by: Ambrosius at Jan 30, 2007 10:05:27 AM
The problem is that the bishops positions are known. He is not making a false staement regarding the bishops positions. To say they are not binding is to trivialize them. In essence, one would be arguing that the bishops do not have authority to properly teach what is right in war and immigration, but what they teach in salvation is essential, so he should remain Catholic. This is a contradiction. He most likely doesn't even respect the bishops' positions on these issues. It is one thing for a person to prudentially disagree on these matters. It is another thing for a person to be so ignorant that they cannot recognize the foundation for these positions. Blessing his ignorance is not the solution.
Posted by: M.Z. Forrest at Jan 30, 2007 10:09:33 AM
I think Bishop Olmstead's pamphlet, Catholics in the Public Square, would be very helpful to this young man. It lays out very clearly and concisely which issues it's OK to disagree on, and which it's not. It's brief, available online in its entirety for free, and completely on point
Posted by: Joan at Jan 30, 2007 10:11:01 AM
It lays out very clearly and concisely which issues it's OK to disagree on, and which it's not.
I think a better way of phrasing it is to show how Catholics ought to form their consciences on a range of issues. It isn't so much "disagreeing" with this or that bishop on a particular issue as it is recognizing how formation ought to take place. And I second your recommendation of the essay/pamphlet.
Posted by: Rich Leonardi at Jan 30, 2007 10:18:15 AM
This type of situation is not new, as the Gospel reading at Mass last Sunday shows us. Too often we want Jesus, or the Bible, or the teaching authority of the Church to confirm our views, not to challenge them.
And the challenge is this: do we allow our faith, grounded in Scripture and Tradition, to form our attitudes, behavior, politics, etc., or is it the other way around?
In the political realm everyone wants the Church to speak out as long it agrees with them. When it does not, then the Church is usually dismissed as being "out of step", or simply wrong. Sometimes this will lead people go shopping for a church that is more in line with their politics.
As for suggested readings, Weigel would be a good start, as would "Salt of the Earth" by B16. Your cousin is in my prayers.
Posted by: Fr. Bryan at Jan 30, 2007 10:30:43 AM
I'm going through something similar myself - and I wouldn't recommend Wills' book. It's completely incoherent. Did he have an editor?
It can be more than just the sometimes left-leaning politics of the church - the behavior of the bishops is often infuriating (see that whole Buffalo congressman story), and the money/sex scandals don't help either (but even this again goes back to the bishops ultimately, doesn't it?).
But there is one book that I go to when I wonder why I'm a catholic, and it helps every time - the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I have yet to find any statement in it that I don't agree with. So, my disagreement is with men, not with God, or his church.
So, this guy should spend the time, try to read it, and then decide. It's in paperback, and it's cheap!
Joel
Posted by: Joel at Jan 30, 2007 10:34:21 AM
We need to understand we can't fix him.
One of the hardest things in the world for mere humans is to allow other humans to make their own choices in life, whether they be wise choices or foolish ones. It is very hard to simply allow others to make mistakes, even very grave mistakes, but allowing them to do so is the only way that they will gain the wisdom to make the right choices in life. We don't want to see the child stumble and fall and scrape his knee, but that is the only way he will ever learn to walk.
When the prodigal son left home, his father did not run after him begging him to stay; the father did not give his son a couple of good orthodox books to read. The father let him go. And the father did not go out looking for the son afterward or otherwise ask him to come home. He left it up entirely to the son to do that.
This is a lesson that the cousin is going to have to learn on his own. Maybe he will learn it, maybe he won't. But "we can't fix him," nor is it desirable to do so.
Neither is the answer to say that being a cafeteria Catholic is preferable to leaving altogether. That he should be told that it is OK to simply be a dissenter, private or public, yet remain in the Church. That only compounds the problem and confuses (scandalizes) others.
The answer is to let him go. Many of the people who comment here left or strayed when they were 23. Can any of them honestly say that a couple of good books or a couple of heart-felt sit-down discussions would have made a difference and kept them in the Church? No, it wouldn't have. This is a lesson that they needed to learn on their own. And it is something that he too is going to have to discover and learn on his own.
Posted by: Bender at Jan 30, 2007 10:34:27 AM
First of all, thanks to all of you for your thoughtful and charitable comments. I am the one who asked Amy for the help for my cousin.
MarkAA - you've crystallized the situation exactly. My cousin has very conservative political views. He's done his homework and know what both the US bishops and the Vatican have said regarding certain US policies.
Unfortunately, I think he has homework yet to do, and I pray that God will continue to put that desire in his heart. I've encouraged him to keep learning why the Church teaches what it does.
I will definitely pass along the suggested Chicago parishes. I think a big part of the original problem is that he had been attending Old St. Pat's downtown, which I'm learning has a liberal bent, both politically and liturgically.
Thank you ALL for your wonderful suggestions and most of all for your prayers.
Posted by: Blegger at Jan 30, 2007 11:01:55 AM
I think all you can tell him is to put Christ first in his life and see where that takes him. If politics means more than the Eucharist I don't think an argument is going to carry the day.
When I went through a very dry period a priest gave me a little book that saved my faith. It was "A Shorter Christian Prayer" (title may vary), which was simply the daily office boiled down to a basic and simple format and designed for travelors or lay people who might find the regular thick office too daunting.
The advantage of this thin book is that it is mostly psalms and prayers that will lead him to God without hitting him over the head with the Church, although there is a lot of Church he will soak up along with the rest if he tries it.
At this point I think you want to make the Church's rich prayer life inviting. I would stay away from arguments over whether you can or can't accept teachings on immigration or the like. Good luck!
Posted by: WRY at Jan 30, 2007 11:04:44 AM
It is true that Catholics with conservative political leanings are often too dismissive of the prudential views of their bishops. These views are typically grounded in a deep understanding of the the teachings of our faith and should be taken very seriously, especially since most Catholics, regardless of political bias, are frankly not especially well-grounded in the teachings of the faith. That said, bishops shoud be measured and cautious about any application of teachings that require a prudential calculus or understanding of things that are outside the scope of moral theology. And in my view, they usually are. Indeed, the pastoral letters and other pronouncements of our bishops are usually pretty carefully crafted to take into account appropriate uncertainties, even though headlines and news articles about those pronouncements often fail to communicate such nuance. Of course, occasionally the bishops do go too far and look a bit foolish, like they did when they issued the pastoral letter on the economy in the 1980s, which was an embarrassingly poorly prepared document replete with sloppy assertions that simply could not be squared with any educated understanding of the operations of a market economy.
I agree with the commentators who recommend the Catechism, Salt of the Earth, and Weigel. I don't think recommending some good books will interfere with the fact, as emphasized by Bender, that the young man will need to make his own decision in his own way.
Posted by: Mike Petrik at Jan 30, 2007 11:13:01 AM
Perhaps his friend could explain to him that while the moral principles underlying war, etc., form part of the Church's social teachings, Catholics can and do disagree about how to apply those teachings to particular issues. Then go on to explain how some statements that come out of the USCCB are definitely skewed in a certain direction.
It'a also worth recalling that ultimately no bishops conference can take the place of papal teaching. It's happened more than once in history that the majority of bishops in a certain region taught heresy (for example, Arianism -- "Athanasius contra mundum").
Posted by: Sr Lorraine at Jan 30, 2007 11:13:47 AM
One thing a person should ask themselves is if their church is truly preaching the gospel or has it joined with the world system?
With the Catholic church, and now with TOO many apostate Prot churches joining WITH THE WORLD: Fornication with kings has become the dominant theme. Dominionism, blind obedience to corrupt politicians, bad politics and total support of the globalist world system warned of in Revelation. [The Tower of Babel is being rebuilt--and the Pope and his Vatican minions with their endless praises for the United Nations, and Rick Warren with his P.E.A.C.E. plan are all on the same page]
Rome's horrible politics, with the exception of abortion was one thing that got me to wake up in addition to my BIble studies. When one reads of the Vatican supporting OPEN BORDERS {actually a NWO plan for world government and one reason they all support unfettered immigration in America}, United Nations programs for totalitarianism--total gun control, every rotten interfaith group out there, including World Parliment of World's Religions and WCRP, hatred for Israel--aligned with Palestine, world socialism--with demands for rich nations to redistribute the wealth among poorer ones, and much more, it does bring a person to ask themselves is this really Christ's church?
You can't claim that the Roman Catholic church or even the Dominionist apostates {mega churches et al} stand apart from the politics focused on preaching the gospel, if anything they have JOINED with the corrupt politicians on both the RIGHT {well neo-con really isnt conservative} AND LEFT.
Here's some latest proof...
http://www.ewtn.com/vnews/getstory.asp?number=74933
Posted by: biblebeliever1 at Jan 30, 2007 11:14:30 AM
I think a big part of the original problem is that he had been attending Old St. Pat's downtown, which I'm learning has a liberal bent, both politically and liturgically.
St. John Cantius is walking distance from there. And yes, Old St. Pat's has a "bent," to put it mildly.
Posted by: Rich Leonardi at Jan 30, 2007 11:24:27 AM
Personally, I wouldn't recommend any book. It's too easy to intellectualize about the faith and I don't think that is going to help your cousin.
What he needs is to connect with Catholics in the area it would seem. People have already mentioned the classic two parishes that "orthodox" Catholics always throw out there. I've attended Mass at both and they are good parishes filled with many good people. But they may not be everyone's cup of tea. Cantius is clearly shaped by the Tridentine Mass and St. Mary's by Opus Dei. (No flames -- that isn't a bad thing, but just a fact.) So, it may not appeal to him. (You would know better than us.) In any event, there are a number of good parishes and groups within the Arhdiocese of Chicago. If you want, email me, and I can try and help get you more specific recommendations.
Posted by: JACK at Jan 30, 2007 11:27:57 AM
As a political conservative in the Chicago Archdiocese I can completely relate. It's easy as a political conservative in many parishes in this Archdiocese to be isolated and made to feel like a pariah... not exactly a good way to feel in Church - it's not surprising that he would want to leave.
Many parishes in this archdiocese give the impression (or say outright) that in order to be Catholic one must march in lockstep with the liberal Democratic party line... but that is not true!
There are issues on which men of good conscience can disagree (The war, immigration, death penalty) and there is a place in the Church for those on either side.
I would HIGHLY recommend that he check out St. John Cantius. It is not a question of it being a place that won't challenge his views - because it will. However, they will not present it in the 'namby pamby everyone must agree with the liberal hippy wacko pastoral administrator or they are going to hell' fashion that is all to common in parishes of the Chicago Archdiocese.
In so many other Parishes the focus seems to be on 'social justice' and the like that it is easy to imagine that disagreement of those issues puts you outside the Church - but it doesn't! Cantius instead focuses on what is the important center of our faith - the sacraments (what a crazy idea). I would venture to guess a few high quality Fr. Kolinski homilies and he would be right back in the fold.
For those that would question why someone would feel as this young man does - I will give you a personal example. At my father's funeral Mass the priest took the opportunity to rail against the war and the administration. An administration my father voted for, and a war that he believed was right. I was so upset I would have walked out - except of course for the fact that my father's casket was in the middle of the aisle.
I haven't set foot back in that parish (my geographic parish and the one I grew up in) since then and if I can help it I never will again. If I hadn't been reading and learning on my own about the Church for the last few years and known that there were other places I could go - I would have never set foot in another Catholic Church.
Posted by: mary martha at Jan 30, 2007 11:28:01 AM
"I will definitely pass along the suggested Chicago parishes. I think a big part of the original problem is that he had been attending Old St. Pat's downtown, which I'm learning has a liberal bent, both politically and liturgically."
Danger! Danger! Will Robinson Danger!
That explains a great deal actually. OSP sells itself as the 'Young Adult' Parish and I am certain that they mean well. However if one is not a young adult in a certain (liberal) mold than that is *not* the place for you.
I go to Cantius and love it however he might also like St. Mary of the Angels - they do a ton of great Young Adult stuff... with a more conservative bent. Perhaps suggest that he go to a couple of events there and see if it suits him.
Posted by: mary martha at Jan 30, 2007 11:36:13 AM
I just think it is cool that biblebeliever has a yahoo address.
Posted by: Mike Petrik at Jan 30, 2007 11:36:49 AM
